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Men. Just Men. And Mel Gibson.

I have had a few posts recently featuring pictures with women, and of course, I received a few comments saying things like, "I like seeing pretty girls. However, I like handsome men, fully clothed, just as well."

And I think that's really fair. After all, this is a blog which responds to reader input. At least if the input is to use good looking pictures of any kind.

Nature images would be fine, too, just haven't found any use for them.

So I thought I'd write about the gentleman in the picture. Problem was that I couldn't come up with anything to say about him.

Then I realized there is another gentleman who has caused a storm in Hollywood.

I hesitate bringing him up, but with the reasonable objective of combining good looks with an unusual story he'll have to do.

Mel Gibson.

Yep, I knew you'd react.

If you read things on the internet, Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic faux-pas is the biggest scandal to hit Hollywood ever since Michael Jackson's child molestation case.

As for me, I'm using him because I think he is good looking and my readers are begging for nice looking men.

Then again, he also allows me to write about more serious stuff.

So back to the issue.

Apparently Mel got caught drunk driving, and yelled a few, not so pretty, words to the arresting officers. Very, hard-core anti-Semitic things.

Not pretty.

Then came reports that Mel's father denied the Holocaust.

And that's what it took to set Hollywood on fire.

Mel has issued a heartfelt apology. Some believe it, some don't.

Those who want him to atone for his sins have proposed various remedies. And here's where things get interesting.

The toughest one I read about was proposed by comedian Joy Behar. Speaking Wednesday morning on chat show 'The View,' she said that Gibson 'needs to be welcomed into the Jewish community by a public circumcision.'


Another creative proposal was "Three months acting as a tour guide - along with his father - at Auschwitz, where they will take visitors through the concentration camp, paying special attention to the spa; fitness and aromatherapy center; and breakfast buffet areas."

I've been to the Auschwitz camp and I can assure every reader that you should go, too. Puts life in perspective and also humanity. In fact, I never thought anything like that could happen again. That people would have learned the lesson of not listening to demagogues.

But I was wrong.

Right now we have Hezbollah calling for the extinction of the Jewish state.

And while I think both parties have recently behaved in a manner that doesn't help anyone, I do believe every people deserve their own homeland. That goes for Arabs as well as Jews.

And I think it is chilling, when various groups and countries have as their long-term objective to annihilate another state and another people, such as Israel.

And that is one good reason to write about Mel Gibson's comments.

Because we should never forget what happened and that it can happen again.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Holocaust or "Final Solution" ranks up there as an example of how evil one man can be to another. My question is this... when discussing the Holocaust are we discussing the systematic execution of 6 million Jews or are we discussing the execution of 6 million Jews, X million gypsies, X million gays, X million Polish, etc.? I believe this is a valid question that should be discussed since how you answer this influences how you interpret current events in the Middle East (eg. the current Isreali millitary campaigns).

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, I would propose a world tour for Mel and his Dad. It would start at Aushwitz, continue through the killing fields of Cambodia, the mass graves in Uganda, the trailers of bodies in Afghanistan, and finish up in the Sudan.

We would all like to believe that this could never happen again. But the truth is that it still happens all the time. I'm sure there are plenty of readers who can add things to this list. And, I don't see any difference between Halocaust denial and our own Government policy on Darfur. It is just a different set of blinders.

For many of us, the only way we can get through the day without antidepressants is to pretend we do not know this stuff is going on.

Perhaps Mel's problem is his reliance on the wrong drug.

Anonymous sunrunner said...

Tip for Peter: Big Pharma and the Dem Primary in CT:

From the LA Times:

Lamont also met Richard Goodstein, a friend and supporter of Lieberman's who had waited in the diner for the chance to confront him. As Lamont greeted supporters, Goodstein loudly accused him of unfairly smearing Lieberman.

"I take this all very personally — A, because of my affection for Lieberman; and B, because of my commitment to the prospects of Democrats nationally," said Goodstein, 57, a lawyer.

"I think Ned Lamont has the potential to do grievous harm to the Democrats."

Read more about Goodstein's antics here....

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The dude in the photo is pretty good from an eye candy meter perspective. Although, his sex lines could use some work.

Mel is so yesterday (been there, done that). The anti-Semite issue was raised previously during the release of his film project “The Passion of the Christ”, including at that time, the little factoid that his father is in holocaust denial.

The use of the “Braveheart” photo is interesting, in light of the fact that Mel reportedly uttered these words “... The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." (Source - during his DUI arrest. Hmm, didn’t know that applied to the Wars of Scottish Independence as well. Guess Mel must have edited that part out, lol. Through lack of personal control, judgment and taste for alcohol consumption, Mel will surely pay. There will be loss to his personal reputation and career. Here’s to hoping “the cure” will take, this time around.

What’s going on currently in the Middle East is far from limited to who hates whom. There are far more players and interests being served than those evident on the current field of battle. And, while you may find the reasons for war and hatred chilling, man has a long and distinguished history in this regard. Man's only hope may be for the eventual evolution of the species.

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, thank YOU! Mel does not do much for me, but that Australian guy, that is a BEAUTY! Now, as for the Gibson flap, as jews we react to that, but it is NOT about Mel. It is about ouw own experience, the continuous ANGST we have, and it is not without reason, coupled with the GUILT, that, maybe, somehow, WE are responsible. Anti semitism is a complex thing. It is like RACISM, or any ISM. People suddenly decide that all Sweidsh men with blond straight hair and pale blue eyes are.....and IF it were not for THEM, and then they start doing litle things, such as all Swedish Blond men with pale blue eyes have to go to the end of the line. And, NO, you can not live right next to other people, or even close to them, and NO YOU can not go to university, and IF you do have a degree already you will STILL not get a job, because we are NOT HIRING Blond swedish men with straigh hair and pale blue eyes, because...THEY..! Now that is racism, and it is bad enough. African Americans know about that, and they know about something more, being attacked, and lynched. It was in the past, but it is still a collective Memory. As well it should be. Racism is stupid, bad, ugly and an animal trait. It is worse than an animal trait, because, in spite of all the CHRISTIAN teaching, somehow people feel that they are ENTITLED to ..MURDER... They have done this with African Americans. They have donethis with jews. For us this has been going on for about eight thousand years, but for the last 2000 years what has been added is that THE JEWS killed God. First, the Romans killed Jesus. And another thing, how in the world can you kill God? Is God a human being? Is God a Spirit. And what about that little story in the New Testament, after Jesus' death, and he reapears, and is NOT recognized, in a different physical form, and after a few days, he is again in his previous physical form, the one in which he walked this earth. What is that all about? Just about the resurrection, or, also that it is about SPIRIT, not MATTER? Where does he idea come from that one can do anything and everything one wants, and, indexfinger up into the air, please, he will forigive you? Again, I am just a jew, what do I know, but it SAYS, YOU have to forgive others, as I forgive you. Says nothing about just doing what you want, Monday through Saturday, even murdering, and it will be o.k. on Sunday, IF you go to church. As African Americans know all too well, racism is always there, it lurks just below the surface, and often comes out. You feel it, you are aware of it. Same applies to jews. Judaism is inwards oriented. We are not a crusading religion. We are more a familyu. You can joing the family, IF you take on our joke, and obey 613 "commandments" rather than 10, and study Torah and Talmud. It is not a race. It is a people. To be a jew you do not join a Church. You join a Priesthood. Just this week I had a discussion with a fellow apartment dweller, he is a nice guy, an English bloke, do not even know his name. Started out on a tirade about jews. He know I am jewish, and said "the jews killed HIM". I hear such things a dime a dozen and I am prepared. He went on and on, and I quietly and nicely paried his "arguments". He got angrier and angrier, red in the face, then he said, well he did not want to ruin our "friendship" and insisted on shaking hands. Being jewish, I usually do not hake hands with the opposite sex, but in this case I did, to deflect his rage. You see, I was not angry at all. It was his choice to be angry and upset. And I do not know why he had to argue with me about something about which he knows nothing. I have read the Christian Bible, and I have thought about it, and I can quote from it, but he knows nothing, yet he knows better. The world is a scary place for jews, IF we let it bother us. But we do not BELIEVE that G-d exists, we KNOW that G-d exists. We argue all the time, but on the text of Torah and Talmud and what it means, we do not have OPINIONS about that. We have OPINIONS about anything and everything else. We do not add or subtract one letter, or full stop. As Jesus said: Not a jot or tittle of the law shall pass", and the law that is Torah. Jesus was a jewish Rabbi. He had a bris, he was bar mitzvah, he died a jew. He did not start a new religion. I do not "deny" Jesus. I did not "kill G-d". I take Jesus' teaching seriously and I use it to communicate, hopefully transmitting what Jesus taught, "Love your Neighbor as yourself". To be able to do that you first have to love yourself and you have to love G-d. G-d says: do not murder. Jesus says do not even say "raca" about another person. That is why I am speaking about Mel here. He is going against Jesus' teaching. He does not know Jesus' teaching. He utters L'shon Hara (slander) - do not even say raca. A word once launched can not be recalled. If you tear up a letter and throw the pieces in the wind, you will not find all of them back, and they cling and stick. Jesus also says, does he not, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed you can move a mountain. Thjat means more than having faith, it means that our thoughts and our spirits are powerful and have an influence on our surroundings, even matter. And we have proven such things in physics, and many more and similar matters already spoken of in Kabbalah, not the LA kind, the old kind. There is a remarkable convergence of what was taught in Torah, Talmud and Kabbalah, and what science proves today. That is why the utterings of racists, and people like Mel are shaking us. We know, instinctively, tht it is wrong, and that there are consequences. Some of us are more spiritual than others. Some christians can tell right away what spirit emanates from a person, many African Americans are quitre good at it, so are jews. Back to Jesus' teachings, in parables and lessons as well as in person. Matter and Spirit (Energy) are interchangeable. Bad thoughs, and good thoughts, can physically manifest and take on physicality. What gets us up in arms is not the physical person, Mel Gibson, it is the distorted spirit which manifested through him. That same spirit, evil, menacing, destroying, murdering is manifest all over the world today. Jesus speaks of principalities. What are principalities? We also say G-d is immanent - near to us, acting through us, we serve as a conduit - and Transcendent, beyond us, above us. So, what does that mean? We can be open and should be to what is good, The Creator (creativity), and closed to that comes from the Enemy is destructive, kills, murders). Let us bring this back down to earth, and to small acts, daily life, our thoughts, how we interact with each other. The person is not his race, his skincolor, his religion, his nationality, the person is his spirit. You connect to this spirit through the eyes, with openness to the good that comes from him, closing off to what is bad, but standing your ground. You are not standing alone. We can not argue and reason about opinions, symbols, names of G-d, and giving G-d a physical image. That is forbidden. We can argue what the good book says, and how we should behave, what we have in common. We can argue about facts, as we know them, and law, what is acceptable in polite society. A Tirade, as spouted by Mel Gibson is not acceptable in polite society. Another thing that gets the world upset is the socalled chosenness of jews. As I see it chosenness is exactly the same thing as having a calling to be a priest or a pastor, and our chosenness is not arrogance, just as being a priest or a pastor is not arrogance. We are chosen to provide a function in society. Often it is the one of the canary in the coalmine, as is not the case with terrorism, which has been ongoing for three generations, was allowed to spread, and has now become a worldwide virus. Everyone else is also chosen to provide a function in society, even the disabled person, who suffers, to give others an opportunity to grow, to serve.

Anonymous Rosethejet said...

Mel is still a good looking man. No two ways about it, but his persona has gotten a little ugly. I knew he belonged to a faction of the Catholic Churc, Opus Dei, and knew his father was as bigoted and racist as they come, but nonetheless it was somewhat surprising to hear just how venomous his comments were.

It never fails to amaze me how much the Jews are hated and for no reason that makes any sense at all. I support Israel to the maximum you can imagine. They are fighting for their very survival as a people. The muslims in their insane hatred for the Jews are only fighting a losing battle. I think if Israel really unleashed their military, the muslim world would reel in shock. I have no doubt the Israeli's could bring down governments is they wished to.

I think their reprisals against Lebanon are subdued but correct. They could really lay waste to that nation if they wanted to.

To the above Anonymoose poster.

PARAGRAPHS!! Try breaking up your comment. It is kind of difficult after a while on these poor old tired eyes to read your entire comment.

Blogger Moogirl said...

Oh Doc, may I just say YUM and double YUM! What a lovely surprise to go with my morning coffee. A beautiful, half naked man, and my absolute favorite standard for men everywhere (Braveheart, Not Mel).

Excuse me while I just sit and stare at the screen for a few minutes........................

Ok back to reality.

The Bible says “Out of the heart, the mouth speaks.” This is probably truer after a bottle of Tequila. Mel has always been one of my favorite people (love his sense of humor) so this is terribly disappointing.

I believe, as Michael Moore is to Republicans, Mel will be to the Jewish community. There will be a certain sect that will never forgive or trust him.

But let’s face it, Hollywood has the attention span of a fruit fly and as long as he wasn't caught with a live boy (Michael Jackson) or a dead girl (Fatty Arbuckle), all will be forgiven and forgotten in time. But not without some serious penitence.

As much as I want to believe that this was the ravings of a drunken loon, I cannot forget that out of hte heart, the mouths speaks. Mel never had an ugly side before. Now he does.

What a waste....

Blogger beeta said...

I don't believe in white supremacy, I don't believe in Christian supremacy (no salvation but through Christ), I don't believe in American Exceptionalism (God wants America to rule the world) and I don't believe in Zionism (Jews have a right to artificially and systemically rearrange the ethnic make up of the region of Palestine and establishe a Jewish state). Having said that, I also do not hate or blame the entire white race or all Christians or all Americans or all Jews for the views that some hold.
In the US however, there are certain attitudes that are so ingrained and so much a part of the fiber of society that we all on some level adhere to them without thinking or questiong,unless you as an individual happen to be affected by them (as the anonymous Jewish/American commenter pointed out).
As an immigrant to the US, I have the advantage of not being as comfortable with these attitutes. I remeber when I first moved to the US, I was totally baffled by the racism I encountered and as I became more familliar with the history of civil rights movement and the social adjustements that accured in the US, I understood it a bit more, but never accepted it.
My point in bringing all this up is that, America and some Americans practice a kind of hypocricy that allows them to justify some attitudes and totally dismiss some others as not worth thinking about.
So here is an example that relates to the subject of this post.
In the last year or so, I have seen numerous headlines about President Ahmadinejad of Iran and his denial of holocaust and his opposition to Israel. The attitude in large is that he must be a loony to even utter such words. In the Arab/Muslim world the holocaust is not considered the only genocide in history nor the worst. Further, the existance of state of Israel and the merits and justifications for it are questioned. Holocaust is seen as a European problem and not a Muslim problem and Israel is seen as Europe's last attemp to colonize the ME and later as an arm of US's Emperialistic ambitions. Statements such as Ahmadinejad's are not considered loony at all, they express some deep attitudes that even if they are not uttered everyday, they lurk beneath the surface. Ahmadinejad can be called politically incorrect but not a loony.
Now, here is American hypocricy that fuels the fire even more.
About 90 years ago there was a genocide in the then Ottoman Empire, where 1.5 million Armenians were systematically slaughtered in what Samantha Power in her book "A Problem from Hell" calls the first genocide of the twentieth century and the blueprint Hitler used for the Holocaust. There has been a systematic denial by the government of Turkey (what's left of the Ottoman Empire today) a NATO ally that this genocide ever took place eventhough it is historically well documented fact. The US Ambassador to Armenia, John Evans has been relieved of his post very recentley for daring to utter the words "I will today call it the Armenian genocide" during a visit to Californialast year. You see, today, more than ever we need Turkey as an ally in the ME and Turkey will not tolerate this admission and therefore the US adminstration will deny the truth. In further explaining why this is important, I need to point out that the Armenians were first deported to places like Lebenan and Syria which was then part of the Ottoman Empire's territory and then moved to camps. Many died on rout and many more at the camps and the rest murdered over time. The same treatment was given to Kurds on a lesser degree. Does it sound familliar? The camps and the mass graves still exist, the same as Hitler's reminders of the holocaust. The Armenian genocide is the Muslim worlds holocaust on par with the Jewish holocaust in Europe.
I find it interesting that the US and the so called Christian right who backs this current adminstration would deny the Armenian genocide (Armenians are Christian) by the Muslims and yet upholds the genocide of Jews by Christains. The difference is politics and not truth. The hypocricy is missed on Americans but not on the Muslim world. Ahmadinejad is no more loony than Bush is, they both are politicians who lie and cheat and use oppertunities to further their goals.
We the people ought to be aware of our own blinders and lack of prespective and not let Mel Gibson or the Media or politics of the moment color our judgments.

Anonymous Anonymous said...

beeta, I read that as well on the huffingtonpost today. As a jew I would like to use my experiences and my teaching in order that it will prevent similar disasters for others. Therefore, although I am quite comfortable with my own medical care, at this time, my former experiences prompt me to speak out, sothat we may get better medical care for others, and they do not have to go through what I went through. Similarly, with the holocaust. The holocaust is in the past. Yes. And holocausts, however, are still going on, a.o. in Darfur. Several groups, a.o. jewish groups, have organized to do something about that. What is puzzling is the absense of any comment on this genocide by Kofi Annan. At least, if he has spoken on it, I have not heard about it. Yet, he was quite speedily commenting on the sitution in Lebanon. Also, I am old, and I went through the Holocaust, literally, and saw the inside of a concentrationcamp, as did my elementary school friends, and others. For us, it is not a story, and it is not history. You will now see a lot of comment that Bush has allowed Israel to keep a tab on both Iran and Syria, as if that is new. It is not a new story, because Hezbullah is not a new story. There are commenters, on Hufpo, who say such things as Israel should get out of the WWII paradigm; it is the 21st century. Yes. It is. And we are NOT seeing what was going on during WWII, because then we had one nation, Germany, attacking and invading surrounding countries. What is quite similar is the formations, the drills, the utterances, up to and including the Hezbullah salute, which is quite similar to the Sieg Heil Gruss. This is a similar "spirit" - and I am NOT using this in a religious sense - at work. You look at the outer appearances, yes, but also at the facial expressions, the marching, the parading, and you hear what they are saying. You see the Hezbullah flag now in Iraq, you see it in Lebanon, and also in Iran, syria, and..Europe. The danger is NOT to Israel; it is to the world. Someone on Hufpo commented something like how are the Israelis going to contain Hezbullah without the Lebanese? Oddly enough, it was the task of the LEBANESE to disarm and contain Hezbullah, and they did not do it, or could not do it. Hezbullah, as a National Political Party, and not involved with terrorism, would not be a threat, and would be totally legitimate. But this is a TRANSNATIONAL ARMY, fully equipped, armed to the teeth, with uniforms and operating as civilians, hiding between and behind civilians, and not keeping to any international laws of war. They are not soldiers, who are fighting an army on a battlefield. They are something else altogether. They are a service organization, a political party, a military ENTITY, operating independently within one nation, which has its own army, and they ar led by Iran and Syria, and supplied by them. Ayatollah Ali Khomenei was encouraged and egged on both Hezbullah and Hamas/Fatah, if I may believe the Al Jazeera website. And Bush and Israel and many others were aware of the movements of Hezbullah for a couple of years. Those of us who speak a number of languages, read foreign publications and newspapers and are legal immigrants in the U.S. have a different perspective. Those Israelis who came to Israel after it was declared a nation in 1948 were the kids in my class who came out of WWII and had lost their parents and all their family. They learned a trade while they were living with foster families, and then emigrated to Israel. Others, returning from Gr. Britian after WWII got an education, brilliant students, and went to Israel to make a new life there, full of hope. They BOUGHT their properties and BUSINESSES. They worked hard, saved and served in the army. They had children and grandchildren; it has been three generations now. Some have recently been driven out of their properties in Gaza and are still homeless. They do not go around demonstrating, playing victim and MURDERING. That is the problem with terrorists. You know, when immigrants come here, legally, to the U.S. they may have a number of problems, but nothing compared to what happens in Israel. I do not know what Ahmadinejad is, but I do know that he puts arguments upside down. And to say that the holocaust did not exist is a pertinent lie. This is NOT about Israel. It IS about recurring genocide, and holocaust, and senseless and unprovoked murder. Yes, it happened in Armenia. It happened in Europe, and not only jews were the victims there, and it happens today in Darfur. No matter where it happens, it is evil and should be fought, with the tools we have. Jews use their expertise and personal experience. That is also the basis of Torah. It is not about religion, it is about learning lessons from the past, from behaviors, and it is about passing that on, sothat it will never happen again, to ANYONE, if we can help it. The nazis had a holocaust. There were all sorts of people who were their victims, a.o. gypsies. But their goal was beyond that. They wanted a superior german race,without any disease and disabilities. For that reason they experimented on living human beings, and they advocated sterilization of the impaired, and the not perfectly germanic in race. Terrorists do something similar. You have to be a Muslim, belong to a specific branch of Islam, all the rest are Infidels and they must be removed from the face of this earth. Just read what they are writing, hear what they are saying, see who they are murdering, even their own. Read the article by Nona Darwish on the Hufpo website. Israel is jst the frontier. They have Spain on their Agenda next, together with the U.S., and again, Hezbullah is imbedded all over Europe and as reported is present in the U.S. as well. Yes, let us be aware of our blinders, and lack of perspective, and let HISTORY and facts guide us. Not religion, but the humane lessons of religion, modes of behavior, law, and all those aspects are important. The crisis in the Middle East is not of Israel's making and it is NOT Bush's fault. The crisis lies in the fact that the Muslim male has some catching up to do, and refuses to do so. He blames his lack of success on others; never on himself. Endless donations have been made to the PA and went directly into private accounts of
Arafat (Suha) and Mahmood Abbas. There are gradiose villas where those people live, in the PA sector. Just as Hezbullah USES civilians for their purposes, so does the PA. It is to both of these regimes advantage to be able to showcase "victoms" and "martyrs" and to continue the status quo. The longer it goes on, the more money they have. Not one of those "leaders" puts a bombbelt on himself to shoot himself off to see the 72 virgins and attain the immaculate blood of the martyr.

Anonymous Gary said...

"Ahmadinejad is no more loony than Bush is"

Now I'm confused, Beta. So you seem to me to be saying Ahmandinejad IS loony. After all, it's clear to any thinking being that Bush is.

"President Emile Lahoud accused
Israel of waging a "war of starvation" against Lebanese civilians.

"It is an aggression that has exceeded Israel's declared objectives. Israel has now decided to destroy Lebanon," he said in a statement.

Israel's naval blockade has kept fuel tankers from reaching Lebanon, leading to gasoline shortages. Across the country, long lines of cars form at gas stations where drivers are only allowed to buy a maximum of 2 1/2 gallons of gas.

Essential medicines, including blood pressure and diabetes medications, are in short supply and grocery stores have run out of essentials such as milk, diapers, baby food and canned goods. They also report shrinking supplies of basic staples like rice and sugar."

With a best friend and daughter-in-law that just happen to be Jewish, I tend to keep my thoughts on Israel to myself. That said, congratulations Israel, you've just convinced another American that you're fucking assholes.

As Anon points out above, humans have been mass-murdering each other since the being of modern history and well before, I'm sure. With an Armenian roommate in college, I heard their story. The British slaughter of the Zulu was g(l)orified in a movie. The Arabs kill the Africans, the Jews kill the Arabs, the Hindus kill the... Well, you get the picture.

Perhaps we are just wired to kill each other until someone, or some group takes it too far. Think the Universe will miss us? I doubt it.

Blogger beeta said...

anonymous(last one),
I agree with you for the most part. I share your assertion that as a (legal) immigrant, one tends to have a bit wider perspective than others. I have been arguing that point here for a while. I also do speak other languages and have friends and relatives in at least 20 countries which allows me to see things not only from the American point of view but a more international perspective. I also believe that history/religion/patriotism/nationalism are used by the ruling class or those aspiring to power to promote personal agendas. I am always enraged by a public that is so easily duped. Americans have a funny capacity for gullibility which I found very endearing when I first moved here, but now I see as a serious problem. Fascism is far from gone and you are right about the Islamic movement's capacity for fascism. I also see a defenite slide in this country toward fascism under the Neocon agenda, that is the crux of the problem in a way. I can't defend the policies of US that aim to rule the world any more than I can defend the Islamic movement's ambition for establishing Islamic rule in the ME. And as much as I defend the right of Jews everywhere to live a peaceful and secure life, how can I not defend the same right for the Arabs? As I have stated before many times, my problem is not with Jews or Muslims but with any country that promotes the superiority of one race or one people over another.
At last, I have a problem with the current American and Israeli governments's policies that have only ignited the passions that are being used by Islamists and have set the cause of peace back by at least one generation. The isolation of Iran by the US has only delayed the toppling of the rule of the Islamists by their own people at least one generation. The current crises is doing the same thing in Lebenan and Palestine. These policies are not in defense of a just cause, far from it, it is in furthering the cause of Emperliasm and the mentality of sureriority. The ones who talk about Arabs and Muslims as a lessor or more barbaric or more violent bunch, are the same type who were talked into hating Jews by Hitler. The problem is the same with a different shade. I am trying to point that out and it seems that my arguments fall on deaf ears most of the time.
I share your fear and I share your pain.

Blogger beeta said...

I used the lable of loony to draw a parallel. As I said, Ahmadinejad is not considered a loony by Muslims at all and his remarks are translated not literaly but with a slant. What he is really saying is that he as well as most of ME question the merits an justifications of formation of Israel as a Jewish state and not the right of Jews to live anywhere peacefully. As a matter of fact, Iran has a pretty substantial Jewish minority who even have cabinet members in the Iranian government. His remarks about the holocaust also are aimed at pointing out the bias the west shows in not recognizing the other genocides in history and/or giving the Jewish genocide more importance and therby justifing the existance of Israel. The real problem Arabs and Muslims have is that the holocaust was not the fault of Arabs but Europeans but they have not only shipped their unwanteds to the ME but also allowed the US to make Israel the bully in the niegborhood. No one in the west wants to recognize this injustice and/or address it. Arab nationalism which was the original opposition to Israel was effectivley and brutally destroyed by the US and Europeans thru their puppet regimes in the region. Nasser was castrated by Israel with the help of US. The Muslim brotherhood that was the original Islamic movement was born as a result of this action in Egypt. The overthrow of the Mosadeg government in Iran (a secular democratic regime) by the US (Kermit Roosevelt and the CIA) and installing the Shah gave birth to Khomeini's dream of an Islamic Republic of Iran. on and on and ....
These policies have given power to resistance movements in the region. Hezballh was formed in the midst of Israeli occupation of Lebenan. Lebenan was occupied as a direct result of Arafat and his followers being driven out of Palestine by the Israelis and into Lebenan. I am saying that it is a cause and effect situation and to dismiss it as a Jew versus Muslim thing is absurd. If you are going to denounce violence and fascism, you have to be consistant. The attitude of most Americans toward the situation in the ME is ignorant, biased and superior, and more dangerously, misguided, it only fuels the spread of Islamism as the only viable means for organizing and resistance.
Now you decide what and who is loony.

Anonymous Gary said...


As I said above, tongue in cheek, if you want to convince me that Ahmadinejad is not loony, don't compare him to Bush. If Bush isn't loony, then he's the biggest cynic in this country. Mostly, I think he's just a rightard.

BTW, I agree with your above. My mother's people were also slaughtered, ironically by Hitler using my father's people. My point would be that her people's whole identity does not revolve around this fact. From an early age, that alway struck me as interesting, how the Jewish Community's identity is often defined by this event. I'm sure I must be missing something.

Don't necessarily forget, but suck it up and move forward, and for christ's sake, quit using it as an excuse to go slaughter them some kids themselves.

Gary, latter day antagonist and tree hugger.

For the rest of y'all, I feel like I'm messing up the whole santa claws thing for ya, but there is no god, so I suggest you make the best of what we have here. scissor fight would say, "more of those pills".

Blogger Moogirl said...

Sorry Gary, but only God could create something as beautiful as the guy in Doc's photo!

Blogger beeta said...

"Yo Garr" to borrow a phrase from our Pez, You can call him loony all you want to, no skin off my back....LOL

Blogger beeta said...

I thought I knew the orgins of Zionism...well more or less...and by chance I found an article that is giving me new information. I thought that the first Zionist were from England, the article points to Eastern Europe for the culmination of the idea.....and a few other things I didn't know..
anyway...if you are interested, here is where to find it
"The nececcity of conflict and the primacy of force in Zionist thought" by Adel Safty

Blogger beeta said...

Ok...this might be a better Saturday than the last
Even Silvia Tennenbaum(at 78) says she sees a glimer of hope in a heartfelt article in Newsday
Israel keeps talking about Iran..bla bla bla...but thank God Iran is not bitting too hard
And US and France have worked out a sort of agreement to stop the war(I guess we can start eating french fries again)....fingers crossed...
It seems even AIPAC money hasn't been able to whitewash the horrible scenes of part thanks to all those so called self hating Jews who have been taking out ADs and writting articles in newspapers all over the world
And the Islamists leaders lack of a desire(not to be construed as any kind of complement)to anihilate themselves, however willing they are to send the young to go blow themselves up (well, our own leaders aren't any more couragous either) might help bring about if not peace but ceasefire
Condi is on TV with tears in her eyes telling the Cubans that America wishes to be a good neigbor and friend in this time of change....if her best wishes for Cubans are anything like her best wishes for the Lebenease....God help Cuba!

Anonymous Rosethejet said...

Okay, after a little research.

The model above Mel is (I am pretty sure) Jason Momoa. He is a model(duh) and currently is a co star in the SciFi series STARGATE ATLANTIS. He was also in Baywatch.

He was voted Hawaii's Model Of The Year in 1999.

Has a girlfriend he recently proposed to while in Hawaii.

Studies Buddhism.

Since I figured the doc had nothing to write about him, I would.

Just cuz I'm bored today I guess.

Blogger shooter45 said...

Aw, Rosie, don't be bored. Here, if think that dude is good looking, ponder this: Yours truly, "ShooterMan" has been ordered by the local authorities to register with the Board of education and give 24 hrs. advance notice before walking past any school or bus stop in the district. They need that time to arm the children with smoked glass plates because I'm so good looking, there have been reports that looking at me unprotected have singed their little corneas. At first I was going to fight it as an invasion of my "rights" but when I heard that all the opthomologists in town were flooded with panic stricken parents and teachers too, I thought is was only my civic duty to comply.

And that's the truth. You can look it up.

Anonymous Rosethejet said...


THAT was funny. I gotta remember that one.

Guess I'm not the only one who has a little extra mental time on their hands.

Still chuckling over that one.

Actually I don't think the guy is all the good looking, just decided to see who he was.

Blogger shooter45 said...

I know, I know. You think it's easy being a "hunk." Man, you can never relax. You never know when some grandma spies you, "losses it" and crosses three lanes of traffic and tries to jump you. I try to warn them, but you know groupies.....Just to be regular guy....sigh

Blogger Moogirl said...


I KNEW you were goodlookin', I just knew it! They way you deflect seriousness no matter what direction it's flung at you... nobody but a super-hottie could do it so well!

By the way, thanks for makin' me snort coffe through my mose...

Rosie, thanks for the Daily Stud Update.

But I STILL refuse to watch Baywatch. No one is THAT goodlooking...

Blogger Moogirl said...



You made me snort coffee through my NOSE. Not my mose.

I haven't snorted coffee through my mose in years...

Blogger shooter45 said...

Hey, sista Moo. Good for you, and you could snort coffee through your toes and still be the hottest Babe on the net. And you know how much I love to rub toes, nose, and any other o's, but actually I signed on to say hi to Gary. I didn't have time when I read his tome before, but it's been buggin me since, so if you would forgive me, I'll just scroll down a little bit and I'll be speaking to him now, kind of like a twofer.

Hey Gary, how's it goin? I wanna thank you for taking time off from your post grad studies of Talmudic Philosophy at the Sorbonne, and share your views of....well, you know..stuff. You know, like Jew stuff. Well, you know I was teasing you about the Sorbonne, but hey, you might've gone, what with all the insight you have about all this Jewshit. Jewshit, kind of flows. doesn't it, Gary? kind of like Jewbastard. That's the one I grew up with. that kind of flows into one word too, eh? You know, no one even knew I was Jewish, and we were the only Jewish family within 100 miles in Upstate New York, yet every freakin thing that went wrong for those wingnuts up there
was because of the Jewbastards. Never could figure it out, but what the hell. Enough about me, I wanna know more about your Mom. Tell me about the part where she scrapes the body parts of her family off the wall, and never skips a beat. I mean woweee, that must've been one tough broad (no offense). One minute she's mopping up shredded livers, next minute she's sayin "deal'em, jacks or better." But I tell you something. There's a lesson to be learned there. Shit happens, move on. Right? Don't linger, don't dwell, don't sit around feellin sorry for yourself. Just pick yourself up by your jockstrap and....move on. Kind of like that's what the Jews in Europe should've done after the
so called Holocaust. One minute there's 12 million of them, then "poof" next minute there's 6. They just should've smacked themselves in their foreheads and said "what the f**k !? Jeez, oh well, shit happens. I like it, Gary. Damn, I never thought of it that way. And I like you.
C'mon back often, o.k., Gary? I'd like to hear more of what's on your mind. I gotta go to sleep now, I been dwellin on this shit too long. G'nite, Gary. Sleep tite.

Anonymous Gary said...


Hey, no problem. That certainly would explain why it's now ok to blow up 100's of women and children. I had no idea, butt as the bible says, "an I for an eye". Even if the I's you're killing aren't the eye's that offended.

Want to hear about my mother? Her mother was klled when she was two months old. Her mother's brother "raised" her after her grandparents passed on. Lovely man, her Uncle. It was like he had a live-in maid, only she was eight. She was in an automobile accident in her early 20's, which destroyed her spine.

In her 40's she was diagnosed with "farmer's lung", caused by breathing dust and mold. Her lungs are 2/3 solidified, much like the effects of asbestos. But hey, she helped put food on your table, and other than wearing a dust mask, I don't think she would change a thing.

Oh, and she was the smartest damn farmer girl your ever likely to meet. That's Mom. Saint Teresa.

Want to talk about Native Americans now? Or perhaps the slaughter of a few million good folks in Bangladesh in 1971? We can discuss how it feels to be hacked to death with a machete, if you like.

Shooter, I will say it again. Every person alive has someone at sometime in their family's history that's been horribly abused. You will never convince me that one gets a special three-generation pass to cause the damage that Israel is now causing because of it.

Let me explain it this way. If you lived in a town of 10,000, and three of you neighbors killed a girl from the town next door, would you find it particularly fair if the next town over bombed your town?

Perhaps your town wasn't doing enough to bring those three to justice? Perhaps those three were the only ones with guns and bombs. Still ok?

Now, you are welcome to say that I hate Jews because of my opinions about Israel. Fair enough. I myself consider that the Jews in this country are not Israel, although many of the Jews I do know think differently.

It would certainly be fair to say that I hate little georgie and OUR government for what they've done in Iraq, and around the world. The USA simply isn't the country I was raised believing in.

Shooter, just 'splain me one thing. How is what Israel is currently doing helping ANYTHING long term? Give me just one thing. I don't think you can.

Blogger Moogirl said...

Gary, you said:

“Let me explain it this way. If you lived in a town of 10,000, and three of you neighbors killed a girl from the town next door, would you find it particularly fair if the next town over bombed your town?”

My knee-jerk response was “you bet”, not only would it be fair, it would be expected.

But let’s tweak your scenario a little so that it’s closer to the truth.

Three of my neighbors kill a girl from the town next door. My town supports these neighbors because we, like them, hate the town next door. In fact, that’s the only reason the neighbors killed the girl in the first place. We are in total agreement with the neighbors that killing the girl was a totally awesome idea.

Is it particularly fair for the next town over bomb us now?

Either scenario, I still say you bet.

Anonymous Gary said...


Now isn't that sad. Brings us full circle to one of my earlier posts. Although I know a lot of nice folks, collectively humans are a nasty lot.

What you suggest actually happened in Philly a few years ago. Had the innocents killed not been poor and black, I suppect there would have been hell to pay. As it was, a couple three days of coverage, a shrug, and back to business as usual.

If that's the thinking at this site, I'll play elsewhere.

Blogger shooter45 said...

Aw, Jeez Gary, just as I was about to reply to your prior post, You shot your mouth off answering Moo and revealed what I suspected (actually knew) all along. We gotta play on the same page, Gary. Something like this:
Shooter:..."How do like the Giants this year?"
Gary:.... Great, if you like the folks in Brooklyn talkin like Dese and Dose on toity toid street."
You see Gary, you leave people scratching their heads and wondering if a real conversation with you is possible. You'll notice, if you've been following this blog for a while, that I don't debate my very good friend and who I think is quite brilliant in her own way, Beeta, on the middle east situation any more. She feels her "facts" are smarter than my "facts" and that's when I say bye bye to the debate. You know what I'm sayin, Gary? When Moo gives a "SPECIFIC" example, the rules say you have to answer her "SPECIFIC" example. You can't just do a Michael Jackson "moon walk" and slide on over to some imaginary place and answer that, thinking you answered her point. But I will say you answer with such a resounding certitude and moral conviction that I can understand why you're so cock-sure you "put her in her place!" The only problem is nobody but you knows what the f**k you're talking about.

So go play somewhere else if you like. I for one would hate to see you go. But if you stick around, we have certain general rules. If Katy asks you a question, you can't answer Gertrude and then strut around feelin " I'm bad, I'm bad." Simple, right? C'mon kid, give it another try. Take a break, think it over and let's try it again.

Finally, I didn't appreciate the come back about your Mom. There is no doubt in my mind she was one great lady and I respect and honor her travails and heroic attitude in dealing with her life. But that just illiustrates what I'm saying. When your opponent in a discussion is using metaphor, hyperbole, poetic license, and a tinge of appropriate sarcasm, IN RESPONSE TO YOUR COMMENT, it is highly unfair of you to hit the switch, changing the the platform of the talk

Anonymous Gary said...

Shooter, you asked for it, so I gave it to you.

"I wanna know more about your Mom. Tell me about the part where she scrapes the body parts of her family off the wall, and never skips a beat. I mean woweee, that must've been one tough broad (no offense)."

Butt you see, it WAS offensive. I will say it again: Jews were not the only group ever wronged by humanity, or lack there of.

And I stand by my moogirl reply as well. If she REALLY feels that way, she's bugfuck crazy in my book. Sounds like a Genghis Klan fan. Kill everyone taller than a wagon wheel axil. Fine. Doesn't leave much hope though, does it?

Unlike Mel, I think most of the recent wars can be traced back to the British and the good old USA. I think Beeta's "facts" come closest to the truth as I know it, from Iran, Iraq, India, etc.

As far as commenting here, I've found reasoning with such rightwing attitudes as moogirl's a waste of time. Wonder if she stopped to think about what it was she was typing. I hope not.

Blogger beeta said...

I must admit, You bet I say yeh! sounds pretty much like I am right and you are wrong and that's that, and let's kill the whole bunch of them.
The problem with that is, there are no rules or morals or right and wrong, the law of the jungle boot is bigger, my gun is bigger, my voice is stronger and I am the bully, what you gona do about it!
I will debate and offer points of view and even agree to disagree and keep my restect for anyone who plays fair, but I am sorry, Moogirl is niether logical or analytical or well aware or eduated or FAIR, she takes potshots and at best offers a morally reprehensible position to counter not even a personal challenge. The exercise seems to be a hobby for her, a way of spewing venim. It does not resemble anything close to discussion, and it is not limited to this discussion, she has managed to sh** royally on a guy who was just offering his experiences on the subject of the opposit sex. I don't bother with people of such stature, the worst that America offers, the kind that adher to Rush's way of thinking, kill all the brutes and have a stiff drink afterwards for good measure.
There are sayings that get passed around for a reason.
One is, you may win the battle but you will lose the war. That one applies to Moogirl's methods.
Another one is beware of whom you befriend! And that one applies to Shooter.
If one has to resort to intimidation, brutal force, total disregard for law and the idea of fair play to gain the upper hand, one has chosen to be on the side of wrong no matter what the objective is. Moogirl, and Israel, have chosen their be it!

Blogger shooter45 said...

Hey Sista-Moo, I think Beeta just busted the lid on her laptop, as well as any number of internal organs with that last sentence. She was hanging on pretty good for a while there, but I think a dose of Gary's kaleidoscope logic was just what she needed to sever the bungee cord.

As for you Gary, get some help. But first let's clear a couple of things up. One, MooGirl sure as hell doesn't need any help from me. In the baby-killer religion I adopted, they got a word when describing someone like Moo. They say that person is "real." You know what that means, Gary?...... never mind, it's not important. But I'll tell you something. She can take anything you fire her way and grab it like Yogi Berra handled an errant Rhyne Duren fastball. I know, you don't know that one either. Well don't scratch your head over it. We wouldn't want you get splinters. But thank you for asking about my Mom. She was about the "realest" person that ever lived. Born in Russia, gypsy thru and thru, pure kossack . I still hear the stories of her playing the guitar and singing for the Russian troops in their favorite watering holes during the war that could've ended up with you eating saurbraten for breakfast, while flashing those pearly teeth that were still were cracking walnuts on her death bed. She had legs that had a beginning but no ending, and a spirit that brought those battle weary soldiers to tears. She was smart too, Gary. Smart in a way that unfortunately you'll never understand. She said to me, "shooter, never try to match wits with an unarmed opponent." And so Gary, in memory of my Mom, Ilona was her name by the way,,, fuck off....(sorry Mom)

Beeta, I am truly sorry you feel the way you do. But I sense that now that you found someone that understands a concept that's alien to me, you'll be much happier. All those hours of digging and searching to find whatever whacko confirmed your conclusion will now have a willing recepticle. You see, the problem always was one of methodogy. Intelligent people , scientists let's say, start off with a question. Will this work? Is this true? Are my theories provable? Then they do the research, and hopefully prove they were correct. If, on the other hand, the research proves otherwise, they sadly accept it and try again with a different approach. You and Dickweed got it backwards. You KNOW the facts and the conclusion, so why bother with research and evidence? It really is sad that you're locked, a prisoner really, into a clinical obsession. But at least now you have a playmate, who if he doesn't go play somewhere else as he's threatened us, will make life easier for you.

Blogger beeta said...

Peleeeeeze, like I said, beware of whom you befreind and immitate. The last word applies to Rove's tactics as stated by Republican talking points: "when losing, attack the opponent", along with spin, smear, and good dose of bullying.
I am not defending Gary, he does that on his own, I don't need to have a playmate as you call it or anyone to agree with me for that matter.
If you want to defend mass murder (by Israel or the mob of angy Americans from one town attacking another with no respect for the laws and police and courts) that's your progative, but don't shove that vile idea down anyone's thraot.
Of coarse, it is easy to sit here and cheer if you don't have bombs falling on your heads, and for that matter cheering the IDF pilots who are forced to drop those deadly bombs on top of those innocent people.
I have more respect for those IDF pilots, some of whom are uneasy about following those orders and some others who are defying their orders. You see if you are the agent of death, it is a bit more personal than sitting here in the US shooting your mouths off about the justice of killing to feed the egoes of maniac politicians.
If others are quiet about their opinions, that does not mean you are right. I speak up because I can only take so much ignorance and death with my morning coffee.

Anonymous Gary said...


Wasn't looking for open warfare, just a bit of sanity. Let's start here;

"Shooter, just 'splain me one thing. How is what Israel is currently doing helping ANYTHING long term? Give me just one thing. I don't think you can."

Then this: "When Moo gives a "SPECIFIC" example, the rules say you have to answer her "SPECIFIC" example."

I didn't realize there were rules. Are these published somewhere, or are they Shooter's rules?

"The only problem is nobody but you knows what the f**k you're talking about."

Did you take one a dem dare poles? I must have missed it.

"C'mon kid, give it another try. Take a break, think it over and let's try it again."

If I leave, it's because I don't care for the crowd, not because I let someone bully me. I don't bully easily, Shooter. That's why I use my real name. I've nothing to hide.

One last time, what is Israel hoping to gain? Another generation in another country hell bent on killing ever last one of them? That's the sum-total of their accomplishments so far. Iran will send more bomds, so nothing there. They kill ten, 100 more will be recruited. They kill the leader, three more leaders emerge. To get two back, they've scaraficed 100 or so of theirs, 1000 or so of innocent bystanders and maybe 500 or so of their enemy.

Sounds like a plan to me. One of Bush's plans.

BTW, I LOVE sarcasm, butt preferably not in regards to Mom.


Blogger beeta said...

Now back to civilized discussion.

"The experience, and the inexpungeable memory of genocide itslf, is a primary component of an American Jewish identity that now centers on unconditional defense of the state of Israel.---The engagement of American Jewry with Iarael has been welcomed by the American elite. Israel in the cold war and its bastard offspring, the "war on terror", has served US interests in the Middle East. More, the transformation of a significant group of Jewish commentators, intellectuals and scholars from critical advocated of universal values into apologists for US moral superiority and global domination has suited our leaders very well----Are all these developements, however, good for the Jews? The assumption by Israel of the role of US enforcer in the Middle East is certaily no guarantee of Israel's survival. Should the American elite deside that broader startegic interests require curbing or even abandoning Israel, it would not hesitate to do so.----Jerusalem has changed hands tens of times since the Roman conquest. Israel's policies, combining brutality toward the Arabs with contempt for them, will bring, sooner rather than later, another change. The Jewish state was supposed to protect the Diaspora, but now it is the Diaspora that protects the Jewish state. The American Diaspora, however is living well beyond its political means. Its ability to help Israel indefinitely is questionable."
Norman Birnbaum

Blogger Moogirl said...

OMG! What the hell happened since I went to sleep?

I wake up to find that not only am I “bugfuck crazy” (which I think is a totally hilarious description and I will be using it from now on) but I am also “niether logical or analytical or well aware or eduated or FAIR, she takes potshots and at best offers a morally reprehensible position to counter not even a personal challenge.”

By the way, Beeta, it’s best, when accusing someone of being uneducated, THAT YOU SPELL EDUCATED CORRECTLY. It will have a much greater impact. How’s that for a pot shot?

Wow, where to start?

Gary, you asked me a direct question. I gave you a direct answer. You asked if I thought your little bombing the neighborhood scenario would be fair. I do. You never asked if I thought it would be right. I don’t. Don’t ask for opinions and then gather up your marbles and go home because you don’t like the opinions offered. Put your big boy pants on and tell my why my opinion is wrong. You never seem to answer my questions with anything other than pouting.

You hide terrorists, you get blown up. Don’t cry for me, Argentina. Do I like it? No. Do I think it’s right? No. Do I wish we could all just sit in a big ol’ circle singing Kum-bi-ya? Yes. Is that reality? No.

You can all me bugfuck crazy (it still makes me giggle), you can call me a “Genghis Klan fan” (not really, too hairy), but hey, calling me rightwing is just a low blow. Wingnuts hate me. They can’t keep up. I’m actually a bleeding heart liberal. I just happen to have a greater grasp on a little thing called reality than you apparently do.

Ah Beeta girl, what am I to do with you? You don’t seem to get how antagonistic you are. I have never once “spewed venom” at you. Girl you need to get to know what venom looks like. I could show you if you’d like but I’m afraid I’d make you cry.

You, on the other hand, are continually accusing those who disagree with you of being uneducated, stupid, and ill informed. Now I am “not logical or analytical or well aware or eduated or FAIR”, and at best I offer “a morally reprehensible position”.

Wow, no antagonism there! See Beeta, you can say all those things and I don’t cry. That’s because I have my big girl panties on. If you can’t run with the big dogs without taking it personally and getting offended, then maybe you should stay on the porch.

That goes for you too Gary.

And Beeta, accusing me of being on the side of wrong, with Israel, is the nicest thing anyone has said of me today! Thank you. Now if you could only tell the difference between venom and snark…

Hey Shooter, how ‘bout those Giants….

Blogger Moogirl said...

And can someone PLEASE tell me how two beefcake photos turned into a discussion of Israel???

Ah, never mind, I see now. We were all having fun talking about the naked guys and Beeta decided the conversation needed to go in another direction with ” I don't believe in white supremacy...”

Now Beeta, THAT was a pot shot...

How bout’ a “Yo mama’s so fat” contest, since I don’t know how mothers got brought into this either.

I’ll start.

Yo mama’s so fat she was floating in the ocean and Spain claimed her for the New World….

And no, Gary, I’m not talking about your mother personally...

Anonymous Gary said...

Perhaps this explains it better. Stolen from David Corn

"Fret on Your Own (But Read About the Neocons)

Not only am I still on vacation (sort of); I now have to review the galleys of my forthcoming book within the next few days. So please forgive the lack of blogging on my part and fret among yourselves in the comment section below.

But I did--thanks to a friend--see a rather interesting piece in Haaretz on Friday: a plea from an Israeli to other Israelis to break with the neocons of the United States. In this piece, Daniel Levy, who helped negotiate the Oslo agreement, essentially argues that Washington's neocons are bad for the Jews (of Israel). Two key paragraphs:

Finding themselves somewhat bogged down in the Iraqi quagmire, the neoconservatives are reveling in the latest crisis, displaying their customary hubris in re-seizing the initiative. The U.S. press and blogosphere is awash with neocon-inspired calls for indefinite shooting, no talking and extension of hostilities to Syria and Iran, with Gingrich calling this a third world war to "defend civilization."

Disentangling Israeli interests from the rubble of neocon "creative destruction" in the Middle East has become an urgent challenge for Israeli policy-makers. An America that seeks to reshape the region through an unsophisticated mixture of bombs and ballots, devoid of local contextual understanding, alliance-building or redressing of grievances, ultimately undermines both itself and Israel. The sight this week of Secretary of State Rice homeward bound, unable to touch down in any Arab capital, should have a sobering effect in Washington and Jerusalem."

Read the rest there.

Posted by David Corn at 12:40 AM | Comments (406)

Anonymous Gary said...

Oh, moogirl

My mistake. Your sense of what is Fair is bugfuck insane (stolen from the rudepundit). And I like that one, too.

"You hide terrorists". Oh please. Think they have a choice? Who has the guns, sister? Think about all those Iraqi's who've helped us out. They end up with a couple of caps in the skull.

You see, Moo, Shooter never answers with anything resembling logic, he just goes on the attack. Belittling someone's mother is offensive, even in cyber space. If he wants to be a bully, I'll show him bully. Still waiting to hear what Israel has accomplished these past three weeks. Perhaps he's still thinking. Or perhaps he's got nothing.

Awfully kind of you to come to his defense though. god knows he needs the help.

Soory if he feels the Jews were the only people ever abused. Were is his evidence to disprove my claim?

PS Spilling's over rated. I know a lot of very bright kids who can't spel worth a damn.

PPS If it smell like a neocon...

Blogger Moogirl said...

Hey Gar, guess what? We actually agree. You must be bugf*ck crazy too (stop the presses)!

Here’s my take: America WILL get dragged into this war. You just KNOW Cowboy Bob and his posse are just chomping at the bit, looking for any excuse to go to war with, hmmm, Syria? Iran? I don’t know, pick one. We’ve been frothing at the mouth looking for a reason to expand the Iraqi war into Iran. This isn’t going away.

Only problem is, we don’t have the manpower. We don’t have enough soldiers to do what’s necessary in Iraq already. You know what this means, dontcha Gar? D-R-A-F-T. You say it couldn’t happen? I think it could. And I have three draft-i-licious children. Still think I’m a right-winger?

Now I know you’re sitting there, scratching your head, saying “But Genghis Moo, how can that be? How can you be anti war, anti Bush, and pro Israel? And how can you look so damn good doing it?”

Again, you asked if I thought it was fair, you didn’t ask if I thought it was right. I AM anti war, I AM anti Bush, and I AM pro Israel. And I don’t see how these three things are mutually exclusive.

Blogger Moogirl said...

Gary, you ask “Think they have a choice? Who has the guns, sister?”

Um, who’s HIDING the guys with the guns? Who’s DEFENDING the guys with the guns? Who is PRAISING the guys with the guns? The slang term is “guilt by association”. The legal term would probably be conspiracy. If you hide, defend, support, and agree with the bad guys, why are you then surprised and outraged when your house gets rearranged?

I realize some of these people are innocent bystanders. But some aren’t. You say Shooter never answers any resembling logic. Why, because he doesn’t have all the answers to the worlds woes? And just for the record, he never said Jews were the only race ever abused. That would be stupid. And he doesn't need me to defend him, he does quite well on his own.

What would YOU have had Israel do.
Seriously, back when this started and Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers, what do you think the proper stance for Israel should have been? And I notice that you’ve had nothing to say about all the propaganda coming out of Lebanon. The death toll and carnage isn’t nearly as great as what has been reported.

And here’s a little fact. Hezbollah is fighting back. They’re dropping bombs, ambushing soldiers (shooting them in the back), they’re killing innocent people. Chances are they’re killing Lebanese and blaming Israel.

And yet you defend THESE people? I just don’t understand your logic. But then again, I’m bugf*ck crazy…

And just for the record...I DO NOT smell like a neocon. I just showered and I smell like gardinias.

Anonymous bebop said...

If you can justify killing civilians for your cause, you are the ultimate racist because you view the lives of your race/cause as being worth more than that of whoever it is you have justified killing. I would think any religion's version of God should love all his/her/its children. What kind of parent plays favorites with their kids? Assholes?

Look at the civilian death count. Remember when Israel started out keeping score when the infintada started and quickly stopped when they realized they were killing at least 10x what the other side could manage with their crude weapons? When Palestinians can manage to kill 100, Israelis would have killed 1000. 1000 killed means 10,000 on their side. What's happening in Israel is slow genocide for the purpose of realestate gains. Any other explanation is bullshit. Anyone who can defend that is the worst kind of racist - a genocide promoting racist.

Anonymous Gary said...


Don't believe you will find anything here from me showing any defense of Hezbollah. Not a word. Could be they are shooting Lebanese in the back and blaming Israel. Can't say as i know. But hell, in the back is the best way to shoot someone with a gun.

If Bush's neocons didn't f*ck everything up in the mideast, I would say we could use our pull to lock them in a room and come to terms. Unfortunately, we have NO credibility in the area anymore. Doesn't take a high IQ to figure out the USA is just in it for the cash.

Regarding Shooter, maybe we shouldn't talk about him anymore behind his back. he may overhear and get offended.

Now, off to be a capitalist pig. Here's hoping it doesn't get drafty, although that would wake up the colleges.

Blogger beeta said...

"I am pro-Israel, therefore I criticize Israel"
"I don't say much about the immorality of Israeli actions. They are shockingly immoral. But talking about it won't make much difference. So I appeal to naked self-interest. I point out the obvious: Every time a Palestinian or a Lebenese is hit by an Israeli bomb or bullet, it spells more risk for the safty of Israel."
Ira Chernus

Blogger Moogirl said...

Bebop said:

"If you can justify killing civilians for your cause, you are the ultimate racist because you view the lives of your race/cause as being worth more than that of whoever it is you have justified killing."

This is not a cause, darlin’. This is a war. Israel was attacked. She is defending herself. I can’t help it if she has bigger bombs.

You say look at the death count. How can you when one side is lying about their number of dead? Whatever the correct number is, it’s a terrible loss of life and it is a shame. I don’t feel any worse about the dead Lebanese than I do about the dead Israelis just because there are more of them. That sounds terribly racist to me, so I’m sure that’s not what you meant...right? Would you get behind Israel if they had more dead than Lebanon?

So let me see if I have this straight, Bebop. Israel should be condemned because she has the better ability to defend herself than Hezbollah?

Then maybe, just maybe, Hezbollah shouldn’t have poked the bear. If you attack someone who is bigger and stronger than you are and you get your butt kicked, you don’t get to then whine about how bad they are for kicking your butt. You were an idiot for messing with them in the first place.

Israel was minding her own business. Hezbollah decided it was an awesome idea to poke the bear while she was sleeping. The bear woke up and ate them. You blame the bear???

If Canada suddenly decided to lob a few bombs into the US after kidnapping a couple of our soldiers, exactly what course of action do you think would be appropriate?

Will anyone answer that question? I have yet to see anyone have an opinion as to what Israel’s response SHOULD have been.

And Gary. Be afraid, be very afraid. I agree with everything you just said. Except about Shooter. He doesn’t strike me as the easily offended type. There’s a difference between offended and antagonized.

However, a little antagonism bring out the snark in both of us!

Anonymous Gary said...

Deep breath. Time to catch up to the Doc and leave this one behind. This one's solved, right?


Blogger Moogirl said...

Works for me!

But I want my lovely parting gifts.

Blogger beeta said...

I just read another one of Dershowitz's articles, last push to justify Israel and a new spin to on the old idea. His article predictably did not surprise me. What struck me as interesting was that, everything I have heard from the defenders of Israeli actions regarding this current crises here on this website, follows Dershowitz's logic, tactics, and spin. Oh, don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself.
Now, the question is, do we consider Dershowitz a progressive? a liberal? a democrat? anti Iraq war? oppose to Neocon policies? I don't. Then if some one parodies the same talking points, logic and arguments as Dershowitz, could we consider him/her anything but Dershowitz-like, despite all protests to their true nature?
I call a spade a spade. It isn't the talk, it's the walk!

Blogger beeta said...

There is a side benefit to Mr. Dershowitz's logic, since he and the so called pro-Israel lobby here at this website, justify the killing of Lebense civilians by Israel as a consequence of Lebenese governments policy of protecting Hezballah and allowing them to live within Lebenese land, then, how far do we need to strech the logic of Al-Qaida which says, the American population that elects leaders that propogate unjust policies in the ME are complicit in their crimes and therfore deserve to die.
Does that logic then mean that America brought 9/11 upon itself?
The dark spin that justifies Israel's barbarity toward Palestinians and Lebense, is one that leads us to a world with no high moral ground and one that as was noted by our esteemed pro-Israel co-blogger leads to the "Big Bear" eating little pests, except little pests may turn out to be big foot in disguise. A world that Neocons and their Junior Israeli Neocons are creating for us may not destroy us, but it sure will exact a price on our children in the form of a draft, as was also noted by our esteemed co-blogger.

Blogger shooter45 said...

iYo MooLady, welcome back. I trust you had a nice nap. You had me worried. It must've been an awful nightmare or something, I could hear you way up here, tossing and turning, moaning and groaning.(Now get that smile off your face, not that! ) I swear I heard you saying, in a most plaintiff way that touched my heart, "shooter, shooter, get me outta here." It's a good thing that I remembered my Capt. Video training, and the magic antidote. I whispered into the sky, "MooBabe, slip those gorgeous gams into those 5" stiletto pumps, close your eyes, click your heels three times, and say "help muh, help muh, help muh." And wadda-u-know, "poof" there you were. I know I was a little rusty, and my GPS was a little off, since instead of waking up in the real world, you ended up in Gary/Beeta/Lulu/Land. But hey, alls well that ends well. Glad you're back.
I caught your cute quip back on the booby post, "MoonGirl." Sure is a more pleasant topic than the one that's been going on here. So in the new, more benign mode, I wanna share a secret with you. And whatever you do, don't let Gary read this cause he said that old vitriolic topic is finished and, for once, I agree with him. However he stated in his wacky endearing way that he used his real name, insinuating that the rest of us didn't. Now I take great offense at that ridiculous statement. As we all know, I have the greatest respect for all Moms, and Dads for that matter, and I have absolutely no doubt that your folks Christened you with the lovely moniker "Moo." (now if they used Moo as your middle name also I would begin to wonder, but that's another story.) And now I can hear everyone clamoring, "c'mon Shooter, how did YOU get YOUR name, c'mon, please, please, please." O.k, o.k., but I'm not telling THEM, Moo, This is only for you. The rest of you eavesdroppers, get-outta-here!
You know how when you were growing up (In your case you're still in the process and why I have such an affinity for you. I think we were born twins and you, being much prettier than me, were kidnapped and whisked away), you had a favorite older person who was so close to you and your family that you referred to them as "aunt "or "uncle?" Well, that's kind of how I got the name Shooter and why it stuck. And this, dear Moo, IS the real story: My wacky Mom, Ilona, in return for the Russian soldiers digging deeper into their pockets and dropping a few more Kopecks into the hat, promised them that they would get to hold and coo-coo her baby, little Pavlic Dimitri. Being so far from home and longing for a touch of humanity, they lined up, Kopecks in hand, to hold and play with a baby. One of the soldiers, went a step further. He was a specialist....a sniper. He had a special pistol used in his trade, a long barreled .22 caliber handgun. The next day he broke down the gun, carved a stock and forearm, and magically converted the pistol into a mini-rifle. The next day, as they were ready to move out, back to the front to face the Nazi army, he gave the little rifle to Mom and said " tell little shooter this is a gift from me, and that Specialist Zhukov will always be looking out for him. The name stuck while we were in Russia but kind of died off until years later, we emmigrated to America. Fast forward to when I was in college, on a baseball scholarship, I was fortunate enough to be given an award, after we won the College World Series. I was a pitcher and the award was named the "shooter trophy." And as luck would have it, a few years later, I was serving on the U.S.S Forrestal and U.S.S. Independence as a member of the deck crews that managed the catapults for the jets. Well dontchaknow, we were known as " the shooters" because we "shot" the jets
into the sky.
So now, as Paul Harvey would say, you know "the rest of the story."
Anyway, I'm really sorry I got carried away with this stuff, but leaving that dreary crap we've been yakking about got me kind of giddy.
So if you're not asleep yet, I'll say good nite to you, and all you beautiful Moms everywhere.

Blogger Moogirl said...

Woooow, what a totally awesome story! Ya know, they could make a movie out of your life. But I have to tell ya, the name Pavlic Dimitri sounds like a movie star. Or perhaps a Russian spy. And I think Sean Connery would play you. What a rich history you have.

Mine on the other hand is not nearly so dramatic.

I got my name because I have stupid friends. About four years ago I was poisoned with Ecoli. Only problem was I didn’t know I had it til it had a really good grip on me. The main place it attacked was the fluid surrounding my brain (insert your own joke here).

It made me totally dyslexic and I lost all short-term memory. You’d have to know me to know how funny these symptoms were. I mean it really got to be quite amusing for those around me. They’d play jokes on me, my sister had me convinced for 6 months that I was a year older than I really am. I know, it sounds cruel, but I run with an evil bunch. They’re also a stupid bunch.

They couldn’t ever remember the name Ecoli, so they just started calling it mad cow disease (you can see where I’m going with this can’t you?), since the most common way to get Ecoli poisoning is from beef.

Ok so now I have mad cow disease. I had a community of friends on the net that had great fun at my expense. Every time they saw me they’d moooooo at me. Half the time they’d oooom at me so I could read it with the dyslexia. I said they were cruel! Anyway that just kind of evolved into Moogirl.

I had a blog back then (It’s A Moo Point) because I was so frustrated with what was going on in this country, and the name became official. I SO miss my blog but it became all-consuming and was making me a very angry girl. You know, four years ago you weren’t allowed to be a hate this administration or some wingnut patriot would beat you with his flag. They descended on my website like locusts.

But I miss it terribly. A friend of mine still keeps it up just in case I ever want to return. Every once in a while she’ll post something about a cow.

Anyway so that’s the story of Moo. Not nearly as exciting as Nazi soldiers and World Series, but a quaint little story nonetheless. So if in the future you ever see my get my letters backwards or I forget some little something, only you and me will know why it’s funny!

Blogger Moogirl said...

Oh yeah, my real name is Crickett! I forgot to put that part in there!

Glad to meet ya Pav!

Anonymous Gary said...


Just for you. I suppose Bebop can read it as well. The rest would surely find this offensive. If I didn't have straw were my brian should be, this is what I would write, word for word.

Blogger Moogirl said...

Ohhh, okay, I get it now. I had no idea what Beeta was blustering about because I had no idea who she was talking about. I only peruse the headlines, if I go to HuffPo at all. I never read the personal posts any more. And just for the record, I never liked Cenk Uygur anyway, (too condescending to my beliefs).

Thanks for the link Gary.

So THAT’S who Beeta is comparing me with. Wow, interesting. Now I’m in a quandary. This is the same Alan Dershowitz who helped defend OJ Simpson, and if I remember correctly, Claus Von Bulow? Wow, no loss of credibility there. But wait, he’s Jewish, so he most likely has a personal stake in this debate. Crap, credibility goes back.

I guess the only thing I can do is try to forget the scum this man has defended in the past and to think of him as an educated Jewish man.

Now I‘ve lost sight of the point.

Beeta, are you actually trying to make your point that I am a neocon by comparing me to a civil liberties layer??? Hmmm, civil liberties lawyer...neocon...civil liberties lawyer...neocon. Do the letters A.C.L.U mean anything to you? How can I fight logic like this???

You ask:

"Now, the question is, do we consider Dershowitz a progressive? a liberal? a democrat? anti Iraq war? oppose to Neocon policies?"

I say NOOOOOOO. He’s a Jew who has a personal dog in this race. I don’t and neither do you.

You ask:

"...the American population that elects leaders that propogate unjust policies in the ME are complicit in their crimes and therfore deserve to die. Does that logic then mean that America brought 9/11 upon itself?".

Now you’re catchin’ on. First of all, if we elect unjust leaders then we’re not exactly complicit are we? Second, since Bush has been in office, the worldview of America is that we are bullies who try to push the rest of the world around because we’re richer and stronger. And stupid America is surprised when the world pushes back.

Did we bring 9/11 on ourselves? You bet. Did the people who died as a result deserve it? No. Did we as a country deserve it? Probably. But the target was wrong. It should have been the Whitehouse.

But no one ever accused a terrorist of being logical. And this is all providing you believe that the ME had anything to do with 9/11, which I don’t. I do not believe that this administration is above bringing four planes down in order to justify starting a war.

Am I just the weirdest neocon you’ve ever met?

Blogger Moogirl said...

Hey Shooter, you remember an old song called "Stuck In the Middle With You" by Stealers Wheel?

Yes I'm stuck in the middle with
And I'm wondering what it is I should do,
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face,
Losing control, yeah, I'm all over the place,
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you....

Blogger beeta said...

I hadn't read the reply, I acually don't even read Dershowitz, just look it over for his newest spin.
The guy is a joke an apologist for US's global domination policies. The interesting thing here is that, this new Israel war is nothing but an extension of US policies in the ME, you know what they call re-drawing the ME. I suppose getting Israel to do it was the only choice they had, being that they are humiliated in Iraq. The fact that anyone would call this defending Israel is a joke too, no intellecual, journalist or analyst worth mentioning buys the defense argument, to see anyone that objects to the merits of attacking Iraq and defends this war, must not see the irony.

Blogger beeta said...

Here is an article that supports my argument that this war is not about defense by Israel.

"Since Israel's withdrawl from southern Lebenan in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of "the blue" between the two countries. The UN Interim Force in Lebenan reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006.---In October 2000, the IDF shot at unarmed Palestinian demonstrstors on the border, killing three and wounding 20. In response,Hizbullah crossed the line and kidnapped three Israel soldiers. On several occasions, Hizbullah fired missiles and mortar rounds at IDF positions, and incidents like this killed three Israelis and three Lebanese in 2003; one Israeli soldier and two Hizbullah fighters in 2005; and two Lebanese people and three Israeli soldiers in February 2006. Rockets were fired from Lebanon into Israel several times in 2004, 2005 and 2006---On May 26 this year, two officials of Islamic Jihad---were killed by a car bomb in the Lebanese city of Sidon. This was widely assumed in Lebanon and Israel to be the work of Mossad---there is no serious debate about why the two soldiers were captured: Hizbullah was seeking to exchange them for the 15 prisoners of war taken by the Israelis during the occupation of lebanon and never released. It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would without the spillage of any more blood have retrieved its men and reduced the liklihood of further kidnappings. ----The San Fransisco Chronicle reports that "more than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving Power Point presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to US and other diplomats, journalist and thinktanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail"----A "senoir Israeli official" told the Washington Post that the raid by Hizbullah provided Israel with a "unique moment" for wiping out the organization. The New Statesman editor, John Kampfner, says he was told by more than one official source that the US government knew in advance of Israel's intention to take military action in Lebanon."
by George Monbiot
The Guardian

How would anyone react if they were attacked? That is the question asked by Pro-Israel bloggers.
The answer is: Be a bully, flex your muscles, humilliate and provoke the "little pests" and when you have perfected your plan, take any excuse to start a war and use the excuse of "just defending ourselves"

Blogger beeta said...

On the subject of "He is a Jew", speaking of Dershowitz and his defense of Israel, does that excuse him? Does being a "Jew" give him the right to be on the side of Israel? Does that mean that Muslim Americans ought to be on the side of Hezballah? or Russian Americans are excused from being American patriots? How about Chinese Americans or Indian Americans? What about Pakistani Americans? Should they defend the Taliban, since the majority of Pakistanis support the Taliban. Does being "Jewish" give you a waver on being American or logical or peace loving? How about African Americans? Should they be on the side of African tyrrants who are commiting genocide?
Dershowitz,Jew or not is a dispicable Neocon apologist. Being a Jew does not give him an excuse, it condems him more, the Jews who died in the holocaust didn't die so Dershowitz can become the mouth piece for those who have and are pushing an idealogy that gives prefrence to one race, one people, one country over another.

Blogger beeta said...

Let's not forget the prophets.

The so called "chosen people" were chosen by God , according to the Bible to show the world that people will suffer their own downfall by their own loss of wisdom and humanity. Israel is only proving the predictions of prophets to be right.

Blogger Moogirl said...

Does being a Jew give him the right to be on the side of Israel?

Ummmm, yes?

And the Jews were chosen by God to show the world that people will suffer blahblahblah?

Are you kidding me? I just don't know how to respond to such statements.

Oh wait yes I do. Your knowledge of world events is only surpassed by your knowledge of the Bible.

The Jews are the chosen people because God made a covenant to bless Abraham and his seed. Abraham’s’ seed is Israel.

Your statement only proves how little you know about the entire subject of Israel, and as such, it is no longer any fun to run circles around you.

You know Beeta, there’s a reason I don’t comment on Doc’s post about the pharma industry. The reason is I don’t know anything about it. Nothing. Nada.

There’s an old saying that goes:

"Tis better to be thought of as a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt."

You, my dear, have just removed all doubt.

Blogger shooter45 said...

Hey MooGirl, Scroll back a couple of posts to "New Pfizer CEO's Party Jet for Kiddies" to see what's really important in life.
How long are you going to try to "converse" with obviously superior statesmen and impartial scholars when the "answer" is so apparent and simple, Israel should just commit suicide. See, move on.
I mean, what more do you need? George Washington's "never tell a lie" is the bible for Jew-hating Muslim scumbags, excuse me, I meant neutral thoughful arbiters of peace and brotherhood, like skunk(damn keyboard has a life of it's own) Uygur, who I would bet my life would never, ever, never ever ever ever!!!, be biased in his stench, oops, excuse me again, I meant speech. You see, this whole thing would have been over if back in '67 that one-eyed dude, Moshe Dayan, had only taken a few more days. I mean 6 days, what the hell, what was the rush? Back then I was tooling down the highways of upstate in my '58 Chevy ragtop, "roll over beethoven" blasting, brylcream not helping my Elvis quaffe too much, when I got the news, "92 Billion Arabs Attack Israel!" (that's not what they said but that's what I heard.)
Well, I couldn't let that go on without trying to even the odds, so I did a 180 and shot on down to The City, to the Israeli Consulate to volunteer. (no-lie) By the time my "papers" were ready, Golda and Moshe were sucking down camel sacks of Manischewitz and slurring their way through an off-key "Hava Nagila." If I had gotten there in time the sides would've been even, 92 Billion to 2, and the world would have lived happily ever after. To her credit, Golda did manage to stagger to her "Benz" (o.k. that was her only vice) cranked up her camel-phone and called me. ( I bet you think that's a lie.) Any way, she started yelling, "Shooter, Shooter, can you hear me now? I said "Golda, I hear you."(we were on a first name basis) Again, "Shooter, can you hear me now?" So I said to her aide, Lachaim Noitall, "Lach, get the goddam goblet away from her and stand her up straight, she's talking into her freakin elbow." He said,"sorry Shooter, right away." I said, "slap her if you have to, the Knicks are about to tip off." A quick, "OY-VEY!" and she blurted out what was her crowing statement:
'We Jews,' said Golda Meir, 'are used to collective eulogies, but Israel will not die so that the world will speak well of it.'
And that, my good friend is not a lie.

Blogger Moogirl said...

Talkin' through her freakin' elbow...fell off the bed on that one!

You my friend are one hell of a storyteller. Ever thought of being a writer? Whether telling the truth or shoveling a big ol’ steaming heap of manure, you are absolutely entertaining, even if I have a hard time telling where the truth ends and the shoveling begins. Either way, you should be a writer.

I mean really, brylcream and Hava Nagila??? I can almost smell the camel sacks of Manischewitz!

Simply brilliant.

Heading on up to the Party Jet for Kiddies now. I’m in great need of getting my priorities straight!

Blogger beeta said...

When I moved to the US, as any "legal immigrant" should, I studied American history and Civics (what was the study of American political system then), and for good measure, even though it wasn't required in highschool, I read the Bible from cover to cover. I was well versed in Islamic beliefs, being born in a country that was 98% Muslim, I thought it prudent to read about the faith that my adopted country overwhelmingly embraced. I went to every Church you can imagine and read what I felt necessary to understand the accepted "idealogy".
I do not open my mouth or post about anything I do not know about or have not taken the time to study or contemplate. There are many subjects I am not informed about, Middle East, Islam, Christianity, Judism or US policies past WWII are not subjects I talk about with abandon or any sense of entitlement without knowledge.

" It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith"
Romans 4:13
"understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham."
Galatians 3:7
" Make every effort to live in peace with all men and be holy;without holines no one will see the Lord"
Hebrews 12:14
"And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name"
Isaiah 65:15
"Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof"
Matthew 21:43

Blogger beeta said...

I am willing to offer some kind of outside justification for everything I have said so far. Are you?
I don't rule from my "gut" as our president seems to do, nor do I conclude anything just because "I" deem it true. I read, I study and I think. I look at reality, aside from who I am, where I was born and how my personal realities play into what seems to be happenng in the world. I am an idealist, who embraces reality, as ugly as that is.

Blogger beeta said...

Moo and Shoo,
Let's see what you got in terms of logical,informed, or half way acceptable truth.
And your Mother does not qualify, niether does Mad cow disease.
Personal biases are offset against many with better reasons. Golda Mier is dead and so are thousands of Jews and Arabs.
Let's talk as if we live in the twenty first century and not "some forum repeating the scenes of Holocaust". There are quite a few genocides in the age of "Bushism" to attract our attention.
as the song says:
Don't it make my brown eyes blue?
tell me no secrets, tell me some lies, give me no reasons, give me alibies...
Don't know when I've been so Blue!


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