PETER ROST: PHARMA MARKETING EXPERT WITNESS. AWP, MEDICAL DEVICE EXPERT.: The Dead Baby
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PETER ROST: PHARMA MARKETING EXPERT WITNESS. AWP, MEDICAL DEVICE EXPERT.

Peter Rost, M.D., is a former Pfizer Marketing Vice President providing services as a medical device and drug expert witness and pharmaceutical marketing expert. Judge Sanders: "The court agrees with defendants' view that Dr. Rost is a very adept and seasoned expert witness." He is also the author of Emergency Surgery, The Whistleblower and Killer Drug. You can reach him on rostpeter (insert symbol) hotmail.com. Please read the terms of use agreement and privacy policy for this blog carefully.

The Dead Baby

A few days ago I wrote the post, They Will All Go To Hell.

And I wondered if maybe I had pushed the line when I published images of a dead baby, killed by an Israeli rocket in Lebanon.

(Remember, I am not taking sides, I think both sides are crazy, including the Palestinian parents teaching their kids to be suicide bombers.)

But I know many of my readers are taking sides, so let's talk some more about this.

It was with great surprise that I opened my New York Times this morning, and found another image of an 8-month old baby, killed by an Israeli artillery shell right on THE FRONT PAGE.



And I am not showing this image to point out that Israel is evil or because I'm against Israel, because I am not. But as a parent, I am for children, I really don't care who kills them. It is simply wrong. Especially to kill babies.

And I know, a few of you think, well, Israel has to do this. Lenin said you can't create a revolution without cracking a few eggs, and I guess, you can't fight a war without killing a few babies. That's the conventional wisdom.

But let's take a step back.

If you are for Israel, now we are at the stage that dead babies are on the front cover of NY Times. You think this helps Israel?

And you know what the headline was?

"Tide of Arab Opinion Turns To Support for Hezbollah."

And the Times writes, "with hundreds of Lebanese dead and Hezbollah holding out against the vaunted Israeli military for 15 days, the tide of public opinion across the Arab world is surging behind the organization, transforming the Shiite group's leader . . . into a folk hero."

Hezbollah is absolutely, completely wrong to kidnap Israeli soldiers and provoke Israel. Israel is absolutely wrong to take that as an excuse to go onto a murderous rampage.

But none of that matters.

Remember, history doesn't care who was wrong or right, only who wins. After all, those people write the history. So let's stop that discussion.

Let's talk about what will happen now.

I predict the New York Times picture will be the start of mounting criticism of Israel, with a complete loss of public support for this "war." And I know that so far Hezbollah has won the hearts of the Arab population, support they didn't have 15 days ago. And they won this support by offering up their own babies and children as a modern day blood sacrifice.

If Hezbollah can continue to stand up to Israel they will have achieved what Arabs have only dreamt of for the last 50 years. Remember, most wars with Israel have ended after just six days or so, with any attacker crushed under the mighty Israeli war machine. So if these guys, using their own babies as shield, can keep this going another 15 days, they will be folk heroes in the Arab world for the next century to come.

As for me, I'm simply ashamed to be part of "humanity."

Not even monkeys kill their own babies as brazenly as we do, nor do they hold up their babies in front of them when they fight other monkeys.

57 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not commenting because I'm crying.

7/28/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

Doc,
Welcome back to real, ugly and savage world we live in.

7/28/2006  
Blogger justanotheryblogreader said...

Here is a little bit more information on this saga ... to add some more perspective.

A letter from Chomsky and others on the recent events in the Middle East (July 19, 2006):


The latest chapter of the conflict between Israel and Palestine began when Israeli forces abducted two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from Gaza. An incident scarcely reported anywhere, except in the Turkish press. The following day the Palestinians took an Israeli soldier prisoner - and proposed a negotiated exchange against prisoners taken by the Israelis - there are approximately 10,000 in Israeli jails.


That this "kidnapping" was considered an outrage, whereas the illegal military occupation of the West Bank and the systematic appropriation of its natural resources - most particularly that of water - by the Israeli Defence (!) Forces is considered a regrettable but realistic fact of life, is typical of the double standards repeatedly employed by the West in face of what has befallen the Palestinians, on the land alloted to them by international agreements, during the last seventy years.


Today outrage follows outrage; makeshift missiles cross sophisticated ones. The latter usually find their target situated where the disinherited and crowded poor live, waiting for what was once called Justice. Both categories of missile rip bodies apart horribly - who but field commanders can forget this for a moment?


Each provocation and counter-provocation is contested and preached over. But the subsequent arguments, accusations and vows, all serve as a distraction in order to divert world attention from a long-term military, economic and geographic practice whose political aim is nothing less than the liquidation of the Palestinian nation.


This has to be said loud and clear for the practice, only half declared and often covert, is advancing fast these days, and, in our opinion, it must be unceasingly and eternally recognised for what it is and resisted.



Tariq Ali
Russell Banks
John Berger
Noam Chomsky
Richard Falk
Eduardo Galeano
Charles Glass
Naomi Klein
W.J.T. Mitchell
Harold Pinter
Arundhati Roy
Jose Saramago
Giiuliana Sgrena
Gore Vidal
Howard Zinn


7/28/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

Doc,
I don't have a picture to post, but let me see if I can describe the scene in words.
The bomb that hit a major power plant in Lebanon, released over 15 thousand tons of fuel which ended up in the Mediterenian sea and turned the beautiful white beaches into sticky, black graveyards of fish and birds. The environmental damage is enormous and will take years to clean up. The shortage of fuel makes it almost impossible for the people that are warned to leave to do so, even if they wanted to leave their homes and livelihoods. The dead fish and the dead birds and the dead babies all ask, how could Americans allow their MAD president to defend the actions of another bunch of MAD idealogues to unleash such MADNESS.
History will remember "Zionism" and the "Jewish Holocaust" on the same level of insanity and a show case for humanity's ultimate sin, pride, which dictates that one race has the right to destroy another merely to prove it's own superiority.

7/28/2006  
Blogger shooter45 said...

Thank you Doctor, for that wonderful. heartfelt, compassionate missive of your interpretation of
what's going on over there. You are absolutely correct that the Arab world's hearts and minds have
been won over. And to think it was only 15 days ago these same muslims were beckoning Israel with offers of peace and brotherhood. It's obvious the Israelis don't share our innate love and feelings for children and families. And you're absolutely right to brush aside the fact that the Israeli military is under strict orders to to make every effort to avoid damage to civilians. We know for a fact, don't we, that Hezzbollah does the same as it fires over 100 unguided missiles into civillian capitals like Haefa every day. Like the 3 stooges you wrote about the other day, the Lebanese people thought the 12,000 missiles brought into Southern Lebanon from Syria and Iran over the past several years, were figs and rutabagas to be shared with their Israeli friends. They permitted these missiles to be hidden under their childrens' beds, thinking they were gifts to be distributed on Ramadan. Unfortunately, and it's just my opinion, I suspect there were no Arab hearts and minds to be won over. They were won over when the first Jew set foot in the Middle East eons ago and had the mendacity to want to live. We don't call them JewBastards for nothing. Take my word for it, from long personal experience, it IS one word, not only over there, but unfortunately, everywhere.

Now, let's cut out the bullshit! If I'm an Israeli citizen, I have only one request of my leadership. See to it that I and my family get to live. I don't give a shit about Arab hearts and minds, The New York Times, and, can you believe it, Dr. Peter Rost. The first are murderous idealogical demagogues, bent on my destruction, the others are unfortunate myopic enablers. If you believe "there are two sides to every story" or there is some sort of moral equivalence between the two societies, don't read any more. You are a willfully blind, ignorant, moron....or worse. Were there "two sides" to Hitler and the Jews? Pol Pot and the peasants? the Hutus and the Tutsis in Rawandah? Where do you seemingly intelligent people get this idiotic drivel? A picture of a dead Arab baby, killed by accident, by a country trying desperately to simply live , and your brain cells fuse into a ball of shit? Is the concept of defense vs offense, self-defense vs assault, retaliation vs aggression negated by holding up a picture of a dead baby? Unlike the homogenized crap they teach in schools today, the first and only question is "who started it?" Who has been "starting it" and who will NEVER stop "starting it?" They shout it from the rooftops for all but the blind imbeciles to see, every day!

Every time I see a picture like the one you showed, I see a picture of Danny Pearl. I see a picture of the poor souls falling into eternity from the Twin Towers. I see a picture of the muslim women flapping their tongues in orgiastic joy whenever an Israeli "military target," like a kibbutz, or day care center, or a hospital, or a young girl's Bat Mitzvah gets blown to Hell. And to further reinforce the incomprehensible loss of your God given's ability to think and reason, I see a picture of a Muslim mother running around collecting congratulations that her child was "martyred" by the belt strapped on him/her by these "freedom fighters" and expressing regret that she didn't have more children to go out and be slaughtered.

"two sides to the story"......."restraint"........"gone too far"......."losing the PR war"..........If I'm that Israeli citizen, after more than a half century of twisting myself into a pretzel trying to find "the magic key" to peace, as they plot. plan, violate, train, and sacrice their people so they can kill me and my family, I say enough! Do what you have to do. I WANT TO LIVE!

P.S. Mr./Mz "Just another"..... There is no shortage of freedom hating, self-hating, America-hating dildos like Naom Chomsky. Get on your knees, kiss your ass, and thank God we live in a country where these luminaries are allowed to live and poison young minds. Just ask Beeta.(nothing personal, my sweet friend, I still love you)

7/28/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

It is biblical that in the end times, the world will come against Israel.

Whether you believe the Bible or not, all you have to do read the signs. I said yesterday that the Israeli bombing of the UN post will bring condemnation from many countries. It has already started.

The Arab nations will unite against Israel, but we (the US) will ALWAYS stand behind Israel.

But we will be alone.

7/28/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

Shooter,
My friend, I still love you too. We just disagree and that is not such a bad thing, it allows discoarse which then may lead to a deeper understanding and hopefully more harmony. Is that not the purpose of websites such as this?
On the subject at hand, I want you know that I respect you and I respect the memory of your father and his struggles. As I have said before, we can't help but be affected by our personal experiences and historical realities of our life time.
I too have some personal realities that I live with everyday, such as having a sister and a brother that each live on a different continent than me and each other and that our children all have different nationalities. We didn't choose that or the fact that I havn't spent more than a year out of the last 30 years with any of them or my parents for that matter. My mother's dream always was to hold her children as close as she could to her bosom and she has let us go far from her, so that we each could have a better life. I do know how it feels to have your home bombed and relatives killed and how it feels to have your home town leveled to the ground. And I do know the people that brought that carnage to my home, but I don't hate them, I cry for them everyday when I see them on TV being blown up to pieces in the streets of Iraq. I don't hate Jews or Arabs or Americans. I don't hate people, I hate idealogies that bring such carnage. My mind is not poisened by Chomsky or anyone else. I listen, I read and think, and reach my own conclusions.
It seems that the core of our disagreement is over whether Israel's statehood is just or not. I think not. I could try and explain, but probably not do the subject justice. If you have the time or the inclination I would like for you to read an article by an Jew born in Israel, and if you like we could carry a conversation about it and if you don't, you will remain my friend.
"Who Are the Real Terrorists" by Oren Ben-Dor
July 27th on the Independent or you can find it at commondreams.org

7/28/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

moogirl,
Don't listen to that crap.

7/28/2006  
Anonymous Dealerman said...

Well, I was just about to go out, a strut'n and cavort'n when I spied this serious stuff gett'n everyone sad and mad. Yo, Shooterman, calm down, take my Billionaire Buddy's advice, "you'll be a long time dead," just don't make it tonite. MooChick and BeetaBabe, how 'bout youse two and me hop on my boat, candlelight cruise up the majestic Hudson to Lake Champlaine where I got this secret island with an even more secret cove.....I got NO doubt we all will be able to solve all the problems, snap! just like that! Might take a while, though,what with all them leap'n fish and singing birds. And the damn sun and sand might be an obstacle but, that's what sacrifice is for.
Yo "Anon" get our bags, load'm on the boat and get outta here!

Later, my dear friends, duty calls, limo's wait'n.

7/28/2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Arabs USE their dead as propaganda "material". They have public and loud "displays" and are facing the cameras and looking right into those cameras. Israelis also have dead babies and dead children. They are not going on camera. They mourn privately and with friends. They do not feel like being photographed. The loss of a child is private. Eliyahu Asheri was not a baby. He was an 18 yr. old schoolboy. As is usual in Israel he was hitchhiking home and picked up by Hamas/Fatah murderers. He was one of the first "prisoners of WAR" in this current war. He was not in any war. His parents were not in a war and Israel was not in a war with either Hezbullah or Hamas/Fatah. In fact, just about a year before that Israel had vacated Gaza and about 10,000 families lost their homes, their businesses, their synagogues and their communities. Hamas/Fatah USED Eliyahu Asheri, a young boy, a human being, as a "bargaining chip", then threatened to "butcher" the young boy, and did so, because they did not get, this time, what they DEMANDED. No one speaks of Eliyahu Asheri, or his parents. There was a photo montage of the private grief of his parents on the www.israelnn.com website on July 6, which, incidentally is Mr. Bush's birthday and mine as well. Arabs USE their own children as projectiles. Raising them in fact for death and not allowing them any childhood. Telling a child that MURDER is glorious takes away his soul, his very essence. Yes, Mr. Rost, even apes do not hold out their dead babies the way, but Arabs do. You are so right. And Arabs do not normally do so either. They just do it to illicit "sympathy" for their "cause" which is wiping Israel (and the U.S.) off the map, and murdering ALL jews. Just like Nazi Germany did. In fact, Hezbullah, a transnational fully equipped militia, WITH UNIFORMS, has purposely chosen Lebanon as its theatre of operation, in disguise and not wearing their uniforms. They are operating out of Iran and Syria; their "leadership" is there. Although in Lebanon Hezbullah is part of a democratically elected government, they hold just about 15% of government seats, YET THEY ARE AN INDEPENDENT MILITARY OPERATION directed out of two foreign nations, to Lebanon, namely Iran and Syria. There is something strange about that, do no you think? What if the Republican Party in the U.S. had its own SEPARATE ARMY, which was led out of some second and third country? Fully armed and WITH uniforms and operating in disguise, dressed like civilians? Normal? You think? A patient at a hospital in Israel is treated for free for two years; she is a Palestinian and lives in the Palestinian sector. She is almost better, and then comes in with a gunbelt strapped on to kill all her doctors, the nurses, the aides, the techs, and blow the whole hospital to pieces. No one utters ONE sylable, let alone a word. Israeli children and babies, and adults are murdered, time and time again, pieces of what were living human beings strewn all over the asphalt. No one utters one sylable. Those damned jews, they should disappear from the face of the earth anyway, right? Israelis do not go around before cameras, showing the pieces of flesh and the blood splattered all over. They gather everything up, try to bury the dead with dignity. They pray, they cry, they mourn for a year. They remember the dead on the date of their death. Jews, Peter Rost, and all of you other bastards, are human beings too. We bleed, and we hurt, just like everyone else. We just do not make a play in ten tableaux out of our pain. We tear our clothes, we ask G-d to forgive us for what made this happen to us that we could not prevent it. We even mourn at disasters happening to others and pray. We go inward, instead of outward. Blood Sacrifice, Peter Rost, is not from the Bible or the Torah, and it can not be from the Qur'an, although I do not know the Qur'an, that appears to be a given, because the Qur'an is supposedly incorporating Torah and the Christian Bible as well. Both of the later FORBID MURDER. Murder, Human Sacrifice, comes from the old Sumerian Rite which was before Abraham, and a HEATHEN PRACTICE. Arabs practice Heathen Customs. Israel has been a Nation with internationally recognized borders for THREE generations. Arabs will not accept FACTS. If they have a problem with FACTS and REALITY they should go before the International Court in The Hague, or before the UN. MURDER is not an alternative and acceptable "method" in polite society. And WE, Peter Rost do not use our dead as brazenly as the ARAB does. NO ONE does that, but the ARAB. They murder a Dutch filmmaker because they "disagree" with the movie. They murder a Belgian Rabbi, from behind, probably a slow day and nothing much else to do. They MURDER each other over Danish Cartoons. They MURDER Each Other in Iraq. They MURDER, they MURDERR. they MURDER. And make no mistake about it, Peter Rost, YOU are on their hitlist. YOU are an infidel. Everyone is an infidel. Even another muslim who does not belong to their specificl faction, and this other muslim, even if he is one of your parents, or your child, may, no MUST be murdered. They want the world to be one Caliphat. They have infiltrated all of Europe. THEY and no one else decide what goes into newspapers in..DENMARK. Spain is next on their list. They already did MURDER in Spain, but Spain is to be a MUSLIM nation, because it was once, in the past. They are on a crusade. Just like the christians are on a continuing crusade. Whether or not one believes in the Bible, this is an endgame, because they "play" to the death. A few weeks ago MUSLIMS murdered Indians on a train. Today, a Pakistani, Muslim?, wounded four and murdered one, in..the U.S. Wake up out of your slumber because we will ALL BE DEAD unless we can stop them. It is NOT about Israel any longer. Israel is the canary in the coalmine. What has happened to us, jews, over the millenia, during the Nazis, during the last three generations, WILL repeat itself and spread elsewhere. It is NOW the world.

7/28/2006  
Blogger shooter said...

Anon......
Your words of course are true but, and I'm sure you know as I do, they'll fall on deaf ears. From
long before Hitler's day to the present, the large majority of people forfeit the brains they were born with and understandably take the easy road of following. Politicians know that if candidate "A" has $200,000 and candidate "B" has $100,000, candidate "A" wins every time. Why?, because candidate "A" can buy more P.R., more graphics, more spin, more bullshit. Rather than realize this, and use their brains, analyze who said what and for what reason, and what's best for me , my family, my country, and mankind, they find it's easier to follow the volume and quality of the P.R . It's how we got Hitler, and the Swift Boat Attack. The media, which once held a special place in corporate America as a public trust and treasure and somewhat exempt from from the other profit driven parts, is no more. Thus, recognizing which way the wind is blowing and more than willing to feed the flame, CNN reports on e-mails written by a U.N. observer at the outpost recently hit by Israel forces. They tell of the numerous near misses by Israeli shells.......but CUT OFF and LEAVE OUT the part where he says the strikes were NOT targetting THEM, but rather Hezbollah guerillas using the post as a shield. No matter how many such examples of these killers using innocent people as shields is exposed, the propaganda bullshit works again and again and again.
Show a choreographed picture of a dead baby to the convenient camera and the "intelligent" people who should know better, become blithering idiots.

Let me share a quick observation with you regarding your point of the difference in Jewish culture. When we first got here from post WW2 Europe, we lived on 176th. St, in the Bronx. At that time it was an area almost exclusively Jewish, much like Chinatown, or Little Italy. My father was not overly religious but occasionaly he wanted my brother and me to attend services. The cathedral, synagogue, "shul" I attended consisted of about 8 to 10 worshippers, a tenement basement, complete with asbestos pipes, wet floors, a lightbulb hanging from the ceiling, and your frequent "mishkas," mice. These men didn't notice a thing, just were grateful for a peaceful place to gather, conduct the services, pray, and then go home to their loving families, feeling joy and gratitude.

They sure fooled me. I wasn't smart enough then to realize they were really murderous baby killers, hell bent on world hegemony.

Shalom my friend. There ain't many of us, but what else is new?

7/29/2006  
Blogger hmp said...

shooter, you could not be more right.

Look at the destruction of Hezbollah infrastructure, and compare that to the number of casualties. If Israel were targeting civilians, casualties would be in the tens of thousands.

On the other hand, the Hezbollah rockets do very little "economic" damage to Israel, and NOTHING to lessen its military capabilities. After all, filled with ball bearings coated with rat poison, they are only meant to kill and maim people.

Golda Meir had it right. Peace will only come when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate the Israelis.

7/29/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

I have never been much for feeling like a victim. I sort of think, if I don't like what is happening to me, I should change it or at least die trying!
There is another way to handle victimhood that I am not very fond of, and that is to milk it for what is worth. You know the chip on the shoulder kind. How can you hold me to the same standards, don't you know how abused I have been? It isn't unique to one group and it wears thin after a while. Just look at how the support for affirmative action has lost it's initial support here in the US.
Is it a wonder that most victimizers have been victimized themselves? It is understanble, but it isn't excusable.

7/29/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Beeta,

To which crap am I not suppose to be listening?

Let me know, I’ll be on the boat with Dealerman, solving the world’s problems....

7/29/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

moogirl,
LOL....boat sounds like fun...
I meant all the different interpretations of End Times and who is Anti Christ and when exactly the world ends..no one really knows anything...some act like they have figured it out and it never happens like they say....I knew this lady who sold everything she had and went to Jeruselim to wait for Jesus right at the end of 1999...thinking the world was about to end. I heard this guy swearing that Saddam was re-building Babylon and that's why G.W. had to go and defeat him...I mean Saddam was one egotistical maniac but to justify war as doing God's work is a strech....Then there is Pastor Hagee of TX who says that the book of Esther predicts a war against Iran by US and Israel...

7/29/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

moogirl,
I forgot about Pat Robertson amd Jerry farwell who think that God aproved of 9/11 bcz of all the gays and femininsts and abortions and then there is this Prof. at BYU ( God fearing Mormon) who is very cozy with the Fundementalist Muslim Clergy who think that God wants them to work together against all the gays, femininsts, abortionists, Liberals and guess who else?...JEWS
Pat Robertson doesn't think that "Thou Shalt not kill" applies to Chavez either....
That's the kind of crap I was talking about.

7/29/2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Israel can be summed up in two words:
Rachel Corrie.
Bulldozer against unarmed Human Being. Bulldozer wins. But Bulldozer cries I AM THE VICTIM!
Rachel Corrie. Rest in Peace.

7/29/2006  
Blogger shooter said...

Yes Rachel, instead of helping killers tunnel in to kill Jews, you can enjoy Arafat and Al-Zarquai tunneling you. You did not die in vain, Rachel. It's obvious you poisoned plenty of illiterate morons to perpetuate the ballad of your betrayal of humanity. Do they use k-y in hell, Rachel?

7/29/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

shooter,
That was below the belt!

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

This is for anyone that's interested!
There is a very good article by Jonathan Schell called "Too Late For Empire" that speaks about US and it's Emperial ambitions and the quagmire that we find ourselves in today regarding Iraq. It is legthy and tedious but worth reading and is being printed everywhere. You can find it at commondreams.org
p.s.
It has nothing to do with Israel and the current war

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Beeta,

I would never, have never, and will never listen to any of the religious wingnuts who have a microphone and a podium. This includes, of course, the Republican Party. I know there are many wackos out there and all of them know exactly when and how the world will end. The Bible says that NO man knows the time. So any time you hear someone saying they do, you can pretty much write them off as a wacko.

But there are signs, not necessarily signs that the world is going to end tomorrow, but the things that are happening in the world, well let’s just say I can see how we’re heading in that direction.

Even if I wasn’t a Christian, I would have to wonder how, at the rate we’re going and the escalation of war, how much longer will it be before someone unleashes the big one?

The Arab world is uniting against Israel even as we speak. There will be no cease-fire because they are dealing with religious zealots who want this war. We, as a country, are between Iraq and a hard place.

And we have a ridiculously useless man as our fearless leader.

And yes, what Shooter said was harsh, but Rachel was a foolish girl. The way she died was horrible, but she shouldn't have been where she was, doing what she was doing.

Now get back to the front, you're blocking my sun!!!

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Anonymous said...

"Israel can be summed up in two words:Rachel Corrie. Bulldozer against unarmed Human Being. Bulldozer wins. But Bulldozer cries I AM THE VICTIM!"


That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read so far.

1. I think Israel can be summed up using a few more words
than "Rachel Corrie", unless of course, you are totally illiterate. Israel didn’t kill Rachel Corrie. She put herself in a dangerous position. Her heart may have been in the right place, but she was a dumb kid and very misguided. When you are young and full of yourself, you believe you are invincible. She had no idea what she was doing or who she was dealing with. She was a misguided youth and it cost her her life. It’s not like the bulldozer was traveling at a high rate of speed. She could have simply moved out of its path. She chose not to. She died for what she believed in. Kudos to her. But let’s not make a patron saint out of her. She was a little girl who inserted herself into a big man’s war. She was naïve and she was wrong and it cost her her life. Blame her parents, but don’t blame the entire country of Israel.

2.It was not a bulldozer against an unarmed human being. And Israel never claimed to be a victim.

7/30/2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sunday morning.

"Israeli attack hits building, killing many children"

Let's add Qana, Lebanon to the other two words.

And for decency's sake let's not blame the Lebanese for "getting inserted into a big man's war," shall we?

And could we please have a choice box on our IRS forms: "Do you want part of your taxes to be used for Israel"

Check: NO.

7/30/2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ shooter:

Thank you for your response. It stands there in all its ugliness and exposes what we can not.

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

I admire people that are willing to die for their beliefs. And I abhore one's that dismiss anyone who does not see the world the way they do. To make crude remarks or accuse them of being unpatriotic or misguided is nothing but character assassination of the kind that Carl Rove and the rest of that criminal gang uses to discredit their political rivals.
Let's call a spade a spade!
Hitting below the belt seems to be the order of the day, TODAY! Yet another black Sunday on the conciece of the world!
We wonder how the 30% that still approve of Bush's policies justify their stand, only to find out that in their eyes, overwhelming evidence of their folly only makes them more vicious and ruthless in supporting their criminal idols.
Truth has a way of asserting itself no matter how much effort is spent in keeping it hidden.
In the words of Oren Ben-Dor, "While states should defend their citizens, states which fail this duty should be questioned and, if neccessary, reconfigured."
Today, the citizens of US and Israel are not safer as a result of the war in Iraq and Israel's devestation of Lebanon, far from it they are hated and dispised by the rest of the world. Ignorance (refusal to see the other side) is the root of hatred and hatred only brings violence and violence begets violence.
Long live Racheal's memory and Cindy Sheehan, who have had more guts than any man to stand up to power!
And to all those "Cyber-Soldiers" out there, I SEE YOU! I just don't buy your garbage!

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

I wonder if the silence here this morning is the result of the scope of savegary we are witnessing today and a crack in the defence of atrocities prepetrated by US and Israel...but somehow I think not! The blinders are cemented firmly on and as soon the new talking points are distributed, we shall hear the new defense for murder! The march is on toward the nighmare of total destruction of hope, democracy and peace!

7/30/2006  
Blogger shooter said...

Trying to debate facts with apologists and supporters of genocidal, stone age, undeveloped, failed men is as fruitless as expecting mercy from Heinrich Himmler. And some of the responses to my posts, so sadly, illustrate this to a depressing degree. But you'll be surprised to know you have some historical counterparts. Guards at Treblinka, interrogated after the War, relayed amusing stories of some Jewish men, as they were walking their final steps down the barbed wire chutes to their "final solution" were strangely smiling. Why? As the laughing SS guards told the inter-viwers, these men were "sure" that when they spoke to the "officer in charge" they would simply explain what good citizens they had been, how loyally they served the Reich in their everyday lives, and how they could be trusted to always support the regime. Certainly intelligent, reasonable men would see the logic of these explanations, realize they had made a mistake, and then let them go. Then, as now, the truth was right out there, in plain daylight, for all to see. Then, as now, seemingly intelligent people simply put on their "teflon truth schields" and ignore reality. But soon, with the help of your terrible denial, you will find that reality will not ignore you.

Beeta, they want to kill you! If you are "lucky" and they only kill your family and friends, you may escape death by accepting the role, as the muslim women have done, of living out your life as the "pet" of the males. But always remember to wear your Burqua, keep your eyes to the ground, walk in a subservient crouch, and never forget to ask a male permission before going to the corner market for an orange. If you behave and submit properly, you will move up the ladder and be able to speak to CNN, where you can laughingly explain to them how joyful you are, how free you are, and how grateful you are at finally finding your proper role in Allah's grand plan. If you're really good, you may be allowed to recruit young "shit for brains," American kids who find your life so very romantic.
***************************
Jews don't proselytize. They just live family oriented good lives, and if some others find their ways attractive, they are welcomed.
Catholics don't proselytize. They go out into the impovershed parts of the world, and through their good deeds, attract and welcome converts.
Some modern Christians do proselytize, but they attract converts with words and ideas and visions.

Only Muslims kill! Only muslims gain converts by offering the choice of death, or submission.

If you want to go to your eternity, being a willing enabler to this aberration, I'm sure your children and grandchildren will bless your memory.

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Anonymous said...
Sunday morning.

"Israeli attack hits building, killing many children"

You left out the part about the building being next to a rocket-launching site.

Who sets up a rocket-launching site right next to an apartment bldg. full of children? Crazy religious wackadoos who want a war, will use children as shields, only to hold up said children’s dead bodies to prove Israel is an evil killer of children, that’s who.

Hezbollah wants to spread anti-Israeli sentiment and is willing to sacrifice their children to do it. These are the people you’re defending??? One can only assume the apartment dwellers were Hezbollah sympathizers and thus knew the risks of continuing to live there with a giant target on their roof.

WE CARE MORE ABOUT THEIR CHILDREN THAN THEY DO!!!

And the Lebanese are at least culpable for allowing Hezbollah to flourish. By allowing Hezbollah to run freely in their country, and by allowing them to continue to thump Israel, the Lebanese were, at the very least, complacent. You cannot turn a blind eye to evil and then cry when the country that is being antagonized pulls it’s Big Boy’s pants up and says ENOUGH!

So yes, they inserted themselves into a big man’s war.

And the children will continue to die.

Tell me Anonymous, what would you propose Israel do? Captivate us with your keen insight. Or is withholding your pittance of tax monies the sum total of your solution?

While you’re figuring out which box to check on your tax form, children are dying.

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Beeta,

Who was the cause of the savagery? Was it the people who were launching rockets into a neighboring country from beside an apartment bldg full of families, knowing this is putting the entire building at risk?

Or was it the people who, while trying to take out the launch site, mistakenly hit the apartment bldg?

How can you defend launching rockets from beside an apartment bldg? Why doesn’t this make Hezbollah the savages and the killers of their own children, in your opinion?

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Ok, let’s try this.

We have a serial killer who lives in an apartment bldg. Let’s call him SK. He lives amongst many families, all who are aware that he is a serial killer. Are you with me so far?

But SK ONLY kills people who live across the street. He never kills people in his own building. In fact, he is quite polite and well liked by the people in his building. He holds the door open for you, he’ll carry your groceries, and feed your cat while you’re away. And, as long as he’s only killing the people across the street, the people in his building think he’s just a dandy neighbor.

Except for the penchant he has for killing people across the street, he’s a very likable fellow.

Enter the people who live across the street. They’ve had enough. They burn down SK’s apartment bldg. Many of SK’s neighbors die.

Now who is at fault here?

Stop blaming the people who live across the street.

7/30/2006  
Blogger shooter said...

Moo, my dear lady, people like "anon" are not worthy of your efforts. They are debris, road kill, whatever speck of data comes their way they take the easy, emotional escape of expressing pain, as if though that moves them up the pecking order of the "good person" scale. They, unfortunately, number in the millions here in America, and are easy pickings for manipulators and Svengalis like Karl Rove and Osama Bin Laden. With Rove it's a picture of a gay couple kissing, with the Muslims it's a news blurb of civilians dead. Upright mammals with inert cranial activity are, unfortunately allowed to walk and vote with the rest of us, here in America.

Being a native Russian, colorful sayings and expressions , were part of my education. They have proven their validity and timeliness
to this day. Lenin's mocking, derisive "useful idiot" quote and Kruschev's statement " The Americans will sell themselves the rope to hang
themselves with" are dreadfully apt today.

7/30/2006  
Blogger shooter said...

If anyone would like to get a real education regarding the Muslim world, check out a certain "Dr. Sultan." Dr. Sultan is a brilliant, brave beyond words, Syrian Muslim female physician who is devoting her life to breaking out and smashing the horrible reality of Islam's cruel hoax. Her main thesis is that Muslim men have failed at accomplishing "anything " vis-a-vis the rest of civilized society, are so full of rage and anger, they are lashing out at the rest of the world for their own failures. Their own women are, so sadly and poignantly, their first victims.

To have educated Americans supply cover for them and give them an air of legitimacy is an obscenity that is unforgiveable.

7/30/2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Weapons of mass deception...


"Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers

From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem
WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.

Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate. (...)"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2289232,00.html

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Wow, paranoid much, Anonymous?

So what is your point? You said it yourself, "...negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda".

Say it with me, pro-pa-gan-da.

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da

1 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

2 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

Is your point that people are using the net to influence others? Wow, that IS news breaking information.

Hey guess what Shooter, we're cyber-soldiers! But I need a cooler name like you have. Moogirl just isn't forceful enough.

How ‘bout The Ter-moo-nator?

PS. Thanks for the heads-up on Dr. Sultan. I’m going to have to do some research on her, she sounds almost too good to be true!

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

I just read the Times article (link provided by Anonymous) and all I can say is a big fat SO WHAT? I still can’t figure out what your point was.

Until the big news organizations start telling the story of BOTHS sides instead of just Lebanon’s, I say more power to WHOM EVER is trying to get the truth out.

These Jewish students trying to influence the debate must be having a field day over at Huffpo.

I bet their fingers are bleeding…

7/30/2006  
Blogger shooter said...

How 'bout "MooChick" "I'll kill ya just for say'n hello."

gotta run, duty calls.

Chin up, like the Marines, we got a few good men. (to keep the syntax and flow, moo, you're a man) LOL

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

moogirl,
You aren't a cyber-soldier. If you pay attention instead of spewing nonesense about things you have no idea about, you will see that cyber-soldiers are Jewish students and others who have been "recruited" by the Israeli Forign Ministry and given a new "software" called megaphone that alerts them to any mention of Israel on chatrooms and websites and allows them to change results of votes or the coarse of discussions by mass injection of their participation for the express purpose of changing the actual true outcome of such votes.
Remind you of anything?
Vote fraud in the US by the Republicans?
Does artificially changing the outcome of votes not alarm you?
That's the purpose of Cyber-Soldiers as stated by Israeli foriegn Ministry.

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

shooter,
Thank you for the history lesson. I assure you that I know a bit more than you do about Muslims and and people of the Middle East. And I also assure you that I do not allow any man, Muslim or otherwise to tell me what my place is. You have no idea what you are talking about.
If you would take your hands off your ears for a few minutes, you would realize that what is happening is not about Muslims and Jews in the first place. Do you ever wonder why the puppet of Carl Rove is defending Israel's attack on Lebenan? Since when has he been on the side of justice and truth? Does it give you a moment of doubt when this group of criminals who have set out to destroy America, now are cheering the act that has made Israel more hated than ever before in the eyes of the world?
So, let me give you a history lesson too.
This war is about NeoCons plans for the ME. The plan is to re-draw the map of ME by destablizing the area and destroying all regimes that are not so called friendly to the US. The first part was Iraq. Next was Lebenan. It was to become a so called "Democracy" friendly (you do understand that friendly means puppet)to US and Israel. With the assassination of Hariri and even with ejection of the Syrian army from Lebenan they could not break the will of the Lebenese enough to install a puppet regime. Here comes militaray intervention, since arm twisting didn't work, but since Americans are not really keen on going into war again, they recruited Israel for the job, specially since Israel would like a weakened Lebanan (they need to confiscate the water from the Litani River for Israeli domestic use and that's why the Shaaba Farms and the Golan Hieghts is being held to this day, water is an important resource)as well. While this war is going on, they are secretly sending signals to Syria to persuade them to break from Iran and become a "friendly" nation and are offering all kinds of carrots while threatening an Israeli attack which is what those new military arsenal being shipped to Israel is about(Thomas Friedman was on Meet the Press this morning talking about his recent trips to Syria and stated as much). If they accomplish that and destroy what is left of Lebenan and with Iraq in ruins, the only country in the ME left that is not friendly is going to be Iran and they are hoping that without any allies and pressure and threats of military attack, Iran will fold or at least will distance itself from the Palestinians and Lebenese. That allows Israel to have its way in the neigborhood (take the good land, water sources, etc.) and then there is the matter of a oil pipeline that goes from Iraq all the way to Damscus which Saddam used to sell oil to Syrians and if Syria and Lebenan are "friendly Nations", the pipeline can bring Iraqi oil to the Mediterenian Sea and therefore allow US to have an alternative to the Persian Gulf routs.
Follow the money is one thing I know you understand...so follow the money!
This is not about Muslims and Jews, it is a global war for dominace. It will not succeed, not because Islamist will sacrifice their children, but bcz the time of Empire has passed. The same thing would happen if the entire ME were Hindus. People all over the world are rejecting being dominated by any Super powers.
Israel will not win either, when the NeoCons are finally out of office (I hope sooner than later), Israel will be blamed for the sins of NeoCons. If you love Israel as you say you do.....then think about this and instead of approving of this action.....think how much it smacks of NeoCon madness. If you love your child and you see him drunk, you will take the keys from him and not let him go to his death in the name of supporting your child.

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Beeta,

Thank you for pointing out the difficulties of spewing nonsense while not paying attention. I was making a joke with Shooter, seeing as how Anonymous was alluding to the fact that anyone speaking out MUST be a hired cyber-soldier.

Please try to keep up.

While I realize you that know more than any other commenter possibly could, about EVERYTHING, apparently you missed the whole sum of my comment before I made the crack about being a cyber soldier. It was about propaganda, and it’s running rampant on both sides.

And no, it doesn’t really bother me that the outcome of silly little polls are being artificially changed, as I am not so simple minded as to be swayed by internet polls. Lighten up, there are no votes being stolen here, the Jewish students aren’t on the Florida voting committee, at least I don’t think so.

Apparently YOU were too busy spewing nonsense to pay attention to THIS part of the article:

“A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

…that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.”

Which part of this scares you so much? Are your beliefs and convictions so weak that you’re afraid of a few Jewish students presenting another viewpoint? Maybe if there were more open dialog there would be less death. Just a thought.

Is poll-slanting a new thing to you? Are you one of those poor souls who are actually influenced by a poll you see on CNN? Only sheep follow polls, my dear Beeta. But of course, you already knew that.

By the way, we all want to know, what ARE your qualifications that you presume to know more than everyone else on the subject of the Middle East?

This seems like a highly arrogant assumption on your part.

7/30/2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Beeta, I don't write much, but this post has caught my interest. Your "facts" and "knowledge" are so aberrant as to seem "made up." The many, many facts presented to you are brushed aside in a reckless, mindless way and replaced by fantasies of, who knows, what origin. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but not your own "facts." The following are excerpts from a speech given by someone with standing who may know somewhat more than you what the realities are. Unfortunately, from what I've read, this won't make any more difference to you than all that has gone before.


Azar Majedi is Chairperson of the Organisation of Women's Liberation. and producer-presenter of "No to Political Islam"

Speech at Stockholm conference on "Globalization of Political Islam, Women's Rights" on 21/01/06, in commemoration of the death of Fatima Shahindal, a victim of honour killings.

For the past 30 years there has been a movement in the Middle East, in Afghanistan, Iran, and in the Islamic ridden countries that has gained power, which tries to acquire power in the region, and tries to become a power globally. It has based itself on religion, has based itself on Islam and has cashed on in people's sufferings and grievances to fill up the vacuum created in the political and ideological sphere in the region. Intimidation and terror is its strategic tool.

The first victims of this reactionary movement are women. They have been raped, stoned to death, killed, maimed, flogged and their dignity violated. Political Islam promotes and mobilizes a very concentrated, coherent campaign to suppress and silence women in the Middle East and the Islamic ridden countries and also in Europe.

Going back to the question: why political Islam? Because Political Islam is responsible for basically all these atrocities taking place against women, children and humanity. Political Islam is the driving force behind this violence. It promotes violence and terror. It mobilizes force, it nurtures and recruits, it supports and encourages, it leads a global movement of terror and backwardness.

Political Islam is an international movement, it fights internationally, it mobilizes internationally. The network of Mullahs and Mosques that spread hatred, terror, and anti women, anti human values in Stockholm, London, Berlin and so on are related internationally. Just go to these Mosques and see what hatred and brain washing they inflict on young minds of our children. They issue fatwa's against people like us, people fighting for women's rights and freedom, secularism, fighting against religious rule, against political Islam, against whoever questions the rule of Islam or the god. All of us deserve to die.

Go to the religious schools and see what superstitions they put in the young impressionable minds of our children: hatred against women, hatred against the West, hatred against liberty and anything human. These are all related. We can not just sit here and talk about an integration policy that is better and can solve the problem. We have to think internationally. They think internationally we have to think internationally as well. They organize and mobilize internationally, we have to organize and mobilize internationally

7/30/2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Need to point out: It's not that the Israeli government is sending cyber trolls to sway international public opion or out of any desire to be appear more humane in front of the international community (they don't give a damn about any of that and are smart enough to know that it is too late for that.) They are sending them only to 1. create the impression that Americans are squarely behind Israel's policies, 2. and to convince Americans that huge sums of money going to Israel (in form of credits for war machinery that are never repaid by Israel)are sent with the consent of the American people.

How many of you who visit political blogs have EVER read a post that began "I'm an Israeli and .... " No, they all pose as Americans.

They do not speak for me, and I resent their deceit.

7/30/2006  
Anonymous Decider said...

To the last anonymous.....

A. The majority of Americans ARE supportive of Israel.
B. Your #2 "convince Americans......sent w/consent of Americans?? Please go ask your parents to re-word that for you so we grown ups can understand what you're attempting to say.
C. If they "pose as Americans" how do you know they're not? Magic de-coder ring?
D. And I "resent" having to read infantile jibberish on a serious topic.

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

anonymous ( with Azar majedi's quote),
I don't know where you got the idea that I agree or support Islamism as a political sturucture of governance. I might add that I do not agree and support the recent political advances that the Christian right has achieved in the US and for the same reason, I do not agree with the state of Israel's policy of only Jews have the right to vote in Israel (technically, as a citizen you can vote in Israel, but achieving citizenship for a non Jew is extremely rare). All religions are absolutist and therefore, can not be described as democratic. I advocate Democracy.
The discussion here was about countries...Israel and Arab nations. Or rather US (and by extension Israel) versus ME countries. It so happens that there is religous devide as well. This religious divide is being used by all parties involved to score points. I asssure you that Christian Fundementalist would be as ruthless as any Islamist in prosecuting women or gays or anything else they deem evil.
Islamism is a movement that has allowed people to gather around the idea of uniting against the enemy ( as the only grass roots organizing available in countries that do not have a democratic system, backed by US BTW), the same way that Christian fundementalism here in the US has allowed a diverse population to elect representatives that advocate their interests.
Once these movements have achieved their primary goal of overthrowing their own tyrannical governments and take power (such as in Iran) they will be challenged by their own population (such as in Iran) and eventually be overthrown, bcz they are inherently anti-democratic.
The rethoric that if they succeed they are coming west to overthrow our governments....is pure fantasy made up by Bushco and war on terror BS. We best be weary of our own exteremists.
BTW, Osama is and always has been a very marginal extremist who is not liked by Hamas or hezballa or by the government of Iran and is not getting along well with the Talibn either lately. He was made into this boggyman by the Bushies to scare Americans into giving up their freedom, even if he has been behind some very horrible acts of terror. Trust me, no body had heard about him in the Arab world till Bush made him famous. And please don't go telling me that I am defending Osama now!..He deserves his special place in hell!

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Anonymous #1: Thank you for responding to Beeta in a more intelligent way than I ever could.

I too believe it will do no good.

Anonymous #2 (Don’t know if you’re the same Anonymous) you said:

"They are sending them only to 1. create the impression that Americans are squarely behind Israel's policies, 2. and to convince Americans that huge sums of money going to Israel (in form of credits for war machinery that are never repaid by Israel)are sent with the consent of the American people."

You may be right, but this could only be effective in a country where the vast population is too fat and lazy to form independent opinions of their own. It’s always so much easier just to blow the same direction as your neighbors, your family, your church, and your government.

Don’t swim against the current, don’t speak out, and God forbid don’t voice an unpopular opinion. Otherwise, you might just get poked with a flag and called un-American.

Ever been poked by a patriot with a flag?

Right or wrong, most of America is not behind Israel. That much is obvious to anyone who can read. Fortunately for the Jewish students trying to sway public opinion, most Americans are just too lazy to have informed, individual opinions. It’s just easier to follow the herd.

You said: "They do not speak for me, and I resent their deceit."

If you’re an American, then I’d think you’d be use to it by now.

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

Decider,
You are right, Americans have been behind Israel for the most part, but that is changing and support is being questioned in the more liberal circles and that's why the Israeli government has attempted this project, they are worried.
Also, this is not done just in Ameica, their worry is more about EU countries.

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Beeta you said:

"The discussion here was about countries...Israel and Arab nations. Or rather US (and by extension Israel) versus ME countries."

Nooooo, YOU are the one who turned it into a debate on the US vs all the Middle Eastern countries on the planet. This started out as a post about Israel, Lebanon, and Hezbollah. We managed to stay on topic right up to the comment you posted about some book about the US and it's “Emperial ambitions”. And somehow Karl Rove even managed to weasel his way into one of your comments.

I know you can’t have a discussion about this without talking about the US, but the main topic was and is Israel and Hezbollah.

And as far as where anyone would get the idea that you support Islamism (is that even a word?), Anonymous never said anything of the sort. I believe what he said was that you make up your own facts and don’t know what you’re talking about.

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

moogirl,
Islamism: Is a set of political ideologies that hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that governs the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state according to its interpretation of Islamic law.
WikipediA
A thread is also a term used to describe an ongoing set of comments on a particular subject on websites such as this. If you do not read the whole thread, you might miss the trend of the conversation. My earlier comments and responses to it clearly show that the subject matter has been discussed with US's role in the conflict.

7/30/2006  
Anonymous Decider said...

To the Israel/US haters on this thread. This is what Israel faces every day. Now go refill your sprite and cheetos and pontificate to us again about the evil Israelis. Oh crap! It's a fact!....never mind. Hezbollah's leader, Nasy (for short, he's such a kidder)

Hassan Nasrallah.............“There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel. ... Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.”

7/30/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Wow, Islamism IS a word. Never heard it or read it before, it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. I take back my snark.

I know what a thread is. I also know some who tend to wonder off topic, no matter what the topic is. But hey, as long as you come back around, no harm no foul. :>

7/30/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

Decider,
Are you mocking G. Bush or are you aplauding him by the choice of your commenter name?

7/30/2006  
Anonymous Decider said...

Beeta....neither, just taking in the comments from both sides, then I will pass judgement. So far, you're behind, I'm afraid. Too much vitriol, too little admissible evidence. "They" started off slow, but hard facts are now piling up. It's not over, but it's late.

7/31/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Mornin’ Beeta,

I’d be interested in your take on THIS:

“Photos that damn Hezbollah”

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

Yesterday you called Israel savages for the bombing in Qana. What do you call THESE people?

7/31/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

moogirl,
I saw the pictures, I don't know what is new about it. If you mean that Hezballa fighters do not wear uniforms and use weapons, that's been established and is not news.
But, you might want to pay attention that in the article it was mentioned that these photos were taken in East Beirut which is the Christian area of Beirut. It was reported earlier that after the bombing of South Beirut, the christians in East Beirut welcomed the refugees and sheltered them.
My point is and was from the begiing that this is not about Islam or Jews or religion. This is about Lebanese fighting the Israelis. Two nations with citizens of different religious persuation. Is religion being used? Yes. Is is the root of the problem? No. Hezballa is the only armed and capable group that can fight back against advances of Israel. That's a fact that even the Prime Minster of Lebenan has accepted and even thanked Hezballa for, and he is not Muslim or Shii't.
But who am I to try and inject a little reason into a call for all out war? If you feel like doing a little reading, I suggest you read a series of articles by this guy Sheldon Drobny. He has been a staunch supporter of Israe's right to defend itself from the start of this war and has been saying the same things you guys here have been. Read his last post and tell me what you think. I promise, I am not trying to one up you. I really don't enjoy fighting.
You can find his posts on the THP (I know you aren't that fond of the site and they keep removing any posts that aren't pro-Israel, as they removed his post today only after an hour or so)

7/31/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

My point was not that they don’t wear uniforms and they have weapons. That would be stupid. However, the wearing of civilian clothes does tend to make using civilians as shields MUCH easier.

My point was that they set up shop RIGHT NEXT to apartments full of civilians. These are the same civilians who will be holding their dead babies in the air, wailing about the evil Israel, and praising Hezbollah, the ones who got their babies dead in the first place.

You said:

“Hezballa is the only armed and capable group that can fight back against advances of Israel.”

While that may be a true statement, WHAT ACT ON HEZBOLLAH’S PART IS CAUSING ISRAEL TO ADVANCE???? Israel DID NOT draw first blood, they did not “advance” until Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers.

So, your reasoning is, Hezbollah is justified and worthy of praise for defending Lebanon in a war that Hezbollah started??? I hate to use sandbox reasoning, but Hezbollah DID start it, and now they want the world to denounce Israel because Lebanon’s children are dying. Hezbollah is solely responsible for every death in Lebanon. And yet, as you stated, the Arab world is praising them for it. Lebanon is praising the very group who brought this wrath upon them. It’s insane.

And girl, we’re not fighting, this is just a little healthy debate! We may get snarky as passions run deep, but that’s what it’s all about!

I will look for Drobny’s posts, although you are correct, I hate the dreaded Huffpo site. I was a little confused though. You said Drobny was pro-Israel and Huffpo removes posts that aren’t pro-Israel, and yet they removed his posts?

I totally disagree. I believe Huffpo is absolutely anti-semitic and anti-christian. Actually, they’re just anti-religion of any kind.

These are their headlines as of this moment:

MIDEAST CRISIS TICKER:
Iraqi VP: Israel Is Carrying Out “Massacres”…
Jerusalem Post: US Interested In Israeli Attack On Syria…
Tens Of Thousands Attempted Escape During Air Strike Halt…
Israel Declares 48-Hour Suspension Of Airstrikes…
Israeli Strikes Kill Dozens In “Deadliest Single Attack”...
At Least 34 Children Among Dead In Qana…
Rice Abruptly Ends Mideast Trip In Wake Of Attack…
Lebanese Protesters Break Into Beirut UN Headquarters…

Doesn’t sound very pro-Israel to me.

7/31/2006  
Blogger shooter said...

Good afternoon folks, I think this is going to be my last post on this subject as I do believe in the oft quoted definition of insanity. "doing the same thing over and over again.....expecting a different result." Debating people with facts as they're wearing they're "fact deflecting armour" would make me a poster boy for that definition

So for context, I would like to explain that I was a member of debating teams throughout my high school and college days, when I wasn't chasing skirts or pitching myself to an athletic scholarship at Syracuse U. (It beat selling my blood or being a guinea pig for the psych-lab)
I only point this out to explain that there IS a difference between debate and arguement, as there is between facts and opinions. Unfortunately, the dialogue here has been arguement. So here goes, my last attempt:

Beeta, this for you:

1. "That's a fact that even the Prime Minster of Lebenan has accepted and even thanked Hezballa for"

FACT: No it isn't. It may be a "fact" that he says it NOW that there are thousands of Hezbullah guerillas, armed and trained by Syria and Iran who would kill him in a second if he dared say anything else. When Lebanon expelled Syrian forces, Israel was the FIRST to congratulate the new Government and the FIRST to offer aid, training, and exchange of technology and goods, and the FIRST to offer their hand in peace and friendship.

2. "this is not about Islam or Jews or religion. This is about Lebanese fighting the Israelis."

FACT: What fighting? There was peace between the two countries. While we all agree George Bush is an idiot, he is right about one thing, The Islamofascists will not tolerate a democratic, secular country in their midst to showcase for their 7th. century poverty stricken people the fruits of Democracy. The uproar going on today is a well orchestrated campaign directed by Syria and Iran, the two countries who fear Democracy more than anything else. THAT'S why they hate Israel. It's got NOTHING to do with land. The Arabs have billions of square miles of land. If they wanted peace, surely Israel, the Palestinians, and the surrounding behemouths could have negotiated an agreeable solution.

3. "But who am I to try and inject a little reason into a call for all out war?

FACT: Hassan Nasrallah.............“There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel. "Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.”
..............Only blind hatred cannot distinquish between the parties who want peace and who want war. If they weren't fomenting war, what would they do? What could they do? They would be unemployed. Arafat confided as much to his closest aides and reiterated that he would be killed in an instant if he ever made peace with Israel.

4. "THP......... they keep removing any posts that aren't pro-Israel........."

FACT: You must be kidding, anyway Moo answered that one.

Finally, a personal note: A writer tried to say in a post a while ago an age old truism..."there are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see." Your emotion is genuine,no doubt. It's the facts. Those damn facts!!

7/31/2006  
Blogger Moogirl said...

Fact deflecting armour...

yer killin' me, Shooter!

7/31/2006  
Blogger beeta said...

shooter,
You are right!
Not about Israel, and not about this war. You are right about the "facts". Micheal Parentti who is a historian says that History is the product of the authors of History. What he means is that people that write about history inevetably have their own agendas and/or their patrons agendas. When some one in acedemia writes a paper or a book, the powers in charge can praise or condem it (Miershimer and what was the other guy? who wrote a paper about AIPAC recentely for example, and I am not defending them here) depending on what their own agendas are. The publishers that may or may not accomedate authors are also connected to the power structure. The reason we have classified documents rarely has to do with National Security and more to do with permeating a myth or covering up a mis-step. And before you get "your butt hole in a knott" as they say in Texas, I am not refering to Israel and the Holocaust exclusively. The point I am trying to make here is that "facts" are based on books and articles and historical accounts and publicly held assumptions which all are subject to slant, depending on who benefits from them.
So, my friend, you are right! Facts are not "absolute" and for that reason my facts and your facts differ.
You are right about another thing. If the subject matter and parameters and specially the ground rules are not defined, no debate is going to produce anything but hogwash, and as much as I never could resist a good debate, this is not a debate.
I wish you well my friend in everything you do!

7/31/2006  

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